by ‘Special Correspondent’
(Editor Comment: Many thanks to SC for this highly informative and comprehensive article. We recommend this as a valuable resource for everyone – whether already out of the church, those who are just looking for answers or people who wish to offer support and help to friends and loved ones still stuck in the church).
THE END OF THE LINE FOR THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY AS WE KNOW IT
This may be of interest to those who are outside but still in, and looking, or it may be of interest to those who have left and may want to continue the game of disseminating and delivering Scientology.
To the “we want to close it all down” group, this article is just another sign of how things are.
A lot of this may have been covered before in various forums, but it is a worthwhile summary.
It seems as if we have three great sides to this tragedy.
- Current members or the field on one side
- The Church is in the middle
- Potential new public on the other side
The Field
Here we have the non-participating group, and the small group still taking part.
By looking at all the reports on all the blogs and many websites, thousands of videos, the majority of the field is a withdrawn, declared, disaffected, cautious, hesitant, non-participating group. Other than this vast majority, we have a small group of more fanatical, hopeful or not-yet-seeing followers still playing the game.
To quote a source “There are more ex-Sea Org members outside the Sea Org than there are current members in the Sea org.” Listen to Mark Headley on Surviving Scientology Radio, and many other very knowledgeable ex-SO execs. Download the interviews, get them onto a flash-drive and play them in your car while travelling. These interviews add a wide swath of context to what has been and is happening to the Church.
Dissemination to the non-participating group falls on deaf and suspicious ears. They don’t believe management, they don’t trust them. They see the Church moving away from what LRH wanted and are horrified. They see the claims at events and think it is unadulterated BS. Some of these non-participating people still believe LRH and some are concerned but believe the tech is valid, whilst others have moved away completely and are now anti. Some are never-ins but are interested in the entire saga.
The number of actual members in the world, is a debated subject. 40,000 seems to be a fair estimate. This is vastly different from the number of members claimed by officials in the Church. If you are sceptical of this estimate, visit the blogs, read some books and figure out your own estimate. Please do not simply reject the number out-of-hand.
Mike Rinder has many articles on his blog putting some meat on this subject, as has Jefferson Hawkins’ books, as well as John P Capitalist’s blog.
The least you will know after doing this, is that Church’s claims are suspect, to put it mildly.
The Church in the middle
We have a ton of information about various “new off-policy” strategies that create Ideal Orgs that do not bring in new people, “new renditions of the tech”, that do not create auditors and a flood of new people, new ways of showing new public videos without human interaction, caring and actual two-way communication.
We also see tons of evidence of the rise of the IAS and its central role in Church strategies. “The IAS alone can guarantee the future of the tech and the planet and civilization”. LRH did NOT create the IAS. By reports, it has billions in reserves.
By simple logic, if the tech works as claimed, the tech and its application can help the survival of mankind. This would mean tech delivered by auditors and trainers. The reason orgs exist. Not the IAS. The IAS cannot guarantee anything. Delivery of tech to interested people can, per LRH.
Simple logic by experienced and fledgling entrepreneurs and observers alike, tells us that you cannot expand demand for the tech by building buildings. LRH says this of course. He says to balance the size of organization with demand, otherwise you are headed for trouble. The Church does not do this, and therefore loses those who know this strategy to be wrong. Longstanding productive members see this and slowly withdraw. Some may say it’s criminal. Others may say it’s brain-dead. Some euphemistically say it is off policy.
Either way, it’s clueless, brain-dead management in action.
We also see the actual result of these programs, which is to drive more and more people into the field, as disaffected and anti and under the radar, independent or declared.
The Church litigates, it is aggressive, it declares longstanding good guys and producers, it tears families apart, and essentially acts as a continuous source of very, very bad PR all over the world. It fuels bad PR, it creates bad PR and to anyone trying to let others know about the tech, makes life unbearable or at least extremely difficult. These statements can be researched as suggested earlier.
There are Church auditors and course supervisors still delivering results of some kind. Some paying members are still having wins. The Church makes sure we hear about these wins. Some are real, but many are suspect. The Church spins its stories and those outside read the stories and suspect their veracity or truthfulness.
Management has betrayed the trust of those outside or under the radar. Management’s word is not trusted. To use the tech of the Church, they are in treason to their members, to their founder and to all those who put their shoulders to the wheel for so many years. All staff, all ex-Sea Org, all ex-members, all disaffected or current staff or public.
If you read all of LRH writings from a strategy and policy perspective, you will KNOW that the current strategies by the Church are wrong, according to the man who wrote them. These current strategies are actually destructive to the subject. The Church is not the subject. It is an organization entrusted to protect and expand the use of the subject.
The Church claims massive expansion. Anyone can look and see and know that this is not true at all. Expansion under the management of DM is non-existent. To those still looking and wondering, just check the blogs and then your very own org or mission, or events attendance, and if you see what you see, it will be contraction, not expansion. This is true in all continents and for decades. This may be hard to accept, as a recent ‘I am concerned about the Church and am looking’, but your own research will show you that this is the case.
A friend completed OT VII and now has student hat, survival rundown, purification rundown, as added steps before OT VIII. His wife has the Basics (all books and tapes) as well, on her line-up. This is a very simple example of what is wrong.
According to the reports on the blogs and sites, the Church has a leader that is off-OTVII since 1993, is not admin trained, is not a CS (case supervisor that programs auditors and clients) and has never run a mission, org or Advanced Org anywhere or anytime.
Your research will show a court case transcript where DM is pinned down and pointedly asked about his admin training.
http://www.ami.com.au/~bradw/cos/Lisa/dm3.htm
The reasons why he is running the show are numerous and a long story, part of any research you should do. What we do know is that he is in charge. He is directly responsible for the above scene. LRH has been gone since 1986, almost 30 years.
The current scene can be laid perfectly at the feet of the leader. If you imagine him being removed and replaced by a benign, smart, tech-savvy, tolerant, 21st century management team of, say 6 of the right people, you can see that things would change. Maybe too late? Another debate.
It is the leader. He has created the incredible mess that we see today.
He has no special powers. He has no special relationship to LRH. He has no stats to point to. Org expansion stopped when he took over. Research this point. Check it carefully.
Potential new public
Internet
Anyone the least bit curious about Scientology now has the internet as the primary source of information, about Scientology, and about anything else under the sun, moon and stars. It is a 21st century mega-database full of everything that may interest anyone.
In 2013, over 100 billion emails and over 19 billion text messages were sent daily. Chat messages exceed 40 billion per day. The sheer volume of information available and in use is almost overwhelming.
This includes the internet of blogs, books, articles, websites and the like, but also includes YouTube and its millions of videos.
Books
Books, as a source of information, are not read by the vast majority of the over 6 billion population. [Research this point if you need to].
The LRH datum of “Books make booms” is last century. It was true at one point.
In the 21st century books can help current efforts to disseminate to an individual. But, not to the wider population. Why? Because of the internet and the vast amount of material negative to Scientology and the Church. The majority who hear about the subject may, possibly, read a book, but will definitely also read what is online.
What is online is massively toxic to the subject. Massively.
One Google search for “Scientology” or for “Scientology news” will show you that this is observably true. Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of articles, sites, blogs, books and videos exist, describing the subject as insane, toxic, cult-like, controlling, weird, space-opera-like. There are also some positive stories, blogs, books and articles.
Anything positive on the internet is tainted, killed off by the toxic.
Throw a bag of vitamins into a toxic waste dump. What happens?
Toxic dissemination
A friend clicked on an Applied Scholastics icon, and a video of the full story of OT III played out. This is one very small example. Interesting to say the least.
Books are not read in isolation anymore. They are simply part of an information stream.
The Church claims a great result in Haiti, with its Volunteer Ministers. Maybe this is true, maybe not, or maybe just exaggerated. The point is, it is the bag of vitamins into the toxic waste.
The FACT of the Church promoting its success, is what that adds to its bad PR image and reputation.
Underneath the above of course, it creates its own bad PR, through court cases, fundraising, being dishonest in its statements, its events, its media and membership claims, its depiction of the life of LRH, its denial of its own policies of disconnection, by forcing disconnection, by running the Sea Org the way they do, by the leader pouring out bad PR actions all year long, being violent, and controlling people, viewpoints and lives.
But when it promotes itself, the above is what happens. The bad PR expands.
Word of mouth: Individual contact
One-on-one discussions about Scientology can still work, as those who do this can attest to. A great auditor will create word of mouth promotion and will gain clients.
For those wanting to continue with the game, this is the way forward.
Broad public promotion will have toxic contagion.
Niche movement (Small religion)
Scientology will occupy a niche market for its services, delivered by independent auditors and ‘field groups’. Ron’s Org, Independent Practitioners and other Indy groups have been around for years. It is a still niche movement, it is small. Nothing wrong with that.
Scientology in all its many current manifestations will not ‘clear the planet’. That dream is dead.
The more avid followers of the original LRH writings may differ with me here. That is fine, but the above scenario is real. As an independent group, to really claim you are still going to ‘clear the planet’ is to lose members the same way the Church does. You will remain tiny. To claim ‘we have the tech and we are going to clear the planet’ is to lose credibility amongst thinking clients.
A good approach, IMO, is to plan, strategize, work out, ways to get the individual groups going, based on this 21st century reality, in which the dissemination of Scientology now finds itself.
It’s okay to be a niche movement.
To those that want to close it down, that is their right to so. Those that want to keep it going, that is also their right to do so.
An independent and honest movement offering services with realistic claims, is fine. People can accept or reject such offers. No problem.
The Church ahead?
What happens to the Church? This is a big debate. There are probably 100’s of different views about this.
The current Church is still chasing the ‘clear the planet dream’, and trying to do things that are in line with this. Big buildings, so-called massive ad campaigns and so forth. It is trying to behave like a ‘big religion’. It is in fact a niche religion, a small movement or group. It behaves as if it were huge. It is not. This is an interesting study of the make-up of the management of the Church.
In Church terms, a false beingness is a valence. It is trying to be what it is not.
If we simply look at the performance of the Church over the last 20 years or so, we can see it is not expanding. It is losing really strong, experienced, staff and members. It is contracting. In the years to come, if no fundamental (massive) changes happen, this will continue.
Mike Rinder’s site has good information on this subject and a graphic by Jefferson Hawkins.
http://www.mikerindersblog.org/how-big-is-scientology-lies-exposed/
It seems to have more financial reserves than it has active members, so a prediction would be that as it shrinks, it will still have funds to keep the doors open, even in modified forms, such as closing some orgs, combining or grouping areas or the like.
The official copyright and trademarks may stay with the small remaining core of controllers, over the next while, but the use of the tech will still be available despite this, as it is now.
This subject requires its own book or series of blog articles or documentary.
If you find just one single claim by Church management to be false, you must suspect all its claims, at least until you have checked them for yourself.
Buildings first, IAS always, very, very, very expensive e-meters, very, very expensive student hat courses, OT IX and X not yet out after 30 years, the character and state of mind of the leader of the Church, Golden Ages of Tech, the life of Sea Org members, the culture within the Sea Org and top management, the disappearance of Int Management, the Watchdog Committee, Management Bureau, Heber, Guillame, Senior CS International, one CS for everyone (Basics/Purif/Objectives regardless of past progress), non-case prerequisites for attesting to some OT levels, sec-checks during OT VII against LRH bulletins to this effect, illegal cancellation of past auditor certification prior to so-called Golden Ages, redesigning the FEBC org board, misuse of ideal org policy and massive misuse of finance policy, and many more, all current and past court cases and their outcomes, and many, many more items on the list; all of these are research points for you to pick up and follow.
http://freezone.org/reports/virginia.htm
Examples of Scientology’s disgustingly bad image deepening into the culture
To end this article, I thought this would be interesting. The bad PR of the Church, and by default, the subject, currently deepens as time goes on, and as long as current management continues to persistently push disconnection, idiotic strategies and actions that in turn foster more terrible PR, the situation just deepens.
A perfect example of this would be the current HBO Documentary fiasco. By it’s own actions (taking out full-page smear ads in major media, publishing vitriol and defamatory articles against everyone connected to HBO, Alex Gibney and the “aposates” etc) the Church is creating it’s own toxic PR.
A further sign that this is true is when we see more and more reference to its toxic PR in the culture itself; the arts, literature.
Besides the movies, videos, books and blogs on the subject and the Church itself, fiction literature now has it appearing in the story-line of the books. This has happened in other media but I have included a couple of examples of fiction literature.
James Patterson
James Patterson is one of the most widely read authors of fiction in modern times. His books have sold more than 300 million copies world-wide in many languages.
James Patterson with Emily Raymond wrote “First Love” for a younger audience. Here is a précis of a relevant part:
Axi and Robinson, a girl and a guy around 16 years old, for reasons you discover in the book, are planning a road trip.
’”We’re leaving this dump behind and taking an epic road trip. Oregon to New York City– with stops along the way of course.” Axi announces this to Robinson, and tells him some of the reasons why he has to come along.
“If you don’t come, who’s going to remind me to have a doughnut with my coffee?”
“You know I have a terrible sense of direction. What if I get lost in LA and the Scientologists find me, and suddenly I believe in Xenu and aliens? What if I get drunk in Las Vegas and marry a stranger? Who’s going to poke me in the ribs when I start quoting Shakespeare? Who’s going to protect me from all that? You can’t let a sixteen-year-old girl go across the country by herself. That would be, like, morally irresponsible—“
During the trip, they visit ER in a hospital. While waiting, Axi walks around and finds a chapel.
“It was utterly unlike the rest of the sterile white hospital. The front wall was a deep red. There was a plain wooden altar with LED candles flickering alongside it. There was no statue of Jesus on the cross, though—no Mary or Ganesh or Buddha or L. Ron Hubbard, either, or whoever it was people prayed to around here. There was just that red—the red of valentines, of blood. Faint classical music came from invisible speakers.”
Peter James
From the book “Not Dead Yet”.
[This includes reference to official Scientology and the Independents!]
The main character in the novel, a detective, Roy Grace of Sussex CID, is married to Sandy Balkwill who disappears, not to be seen for some 10 years or so, in an earlier novel in this series.
Suddenly, and a little mysteriously, she returns as Sandy Lohmann. Roy Grace is now with another woman, and, unbeknownst to him, his first wife Sandy, when she left, was pregnant. His new lady, is also pregnant. Drama was about to unfold! We discover where she has been all this time.
“Sandy Lohmann was a woman who had cleared everything from her head; the husband who constantly let her down because he had to go to a crime scene; the father who let her down because he could never tell the truth about a damned thing in life; the mother who’d never had an opinion of her own.”
“The Scientologists operated the Clear, under their universal banner, THE BRIDGE TO TOTAL FREEDOM. They had helped her to clear the past out of her mind, and look at the world through fresh eyes. And they helped her to look after the baby.”
“It was while living in their headquarters near East Grinstead in Sussex that she had met Hans-Jurgen Waldinger. He had subsequently persuaded her to move with her infant son to Munich, where he introduced her to the organization he had helped to establish, called the International Association of FreeSpirits. The organization offered similar mental regeneration to the Scientologists, but in what she felt was less aggressive—and costly—process”.
John Sandford
From the book “Mad River”.
John Sandford features a main character, Virgil Flowers, in some books and Lucas Davenport, in others, in the Minnesota area within the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. Davenport is Virgil’s senior. ‘Mad River’ has Virgil as the lead character. The novels are a great read with rip-roaring intrigue.
Whilst solving a tricky case, Virgil called his folks in Marshall (Lyon County Minnesota) and invited himself to dinner.
“When Virgil arrived for dinner, there were three freshly painted chairs sitting in the mouth of his parents’ two-car garage. His father collected furniture from the congregation, repaired it, painted it, and passed it along to anyone who needed it, except the twenty or so people who populated the local Church of Scientology, which he loathed.”
“If I go to hell, which would be very disappointing, I can tell you, after all my efforts, it’ll be because I really ……despise those people,” he said. He was in the mudroom, scrubbing his hands with ordorless mineral spirits.
“I can’t find it in my heart to forgive them,” he said. “It’s the biggest con job in the history of the United States. It makes what’s-his-name look like a piker.”
“Good old what’s-his-name was a jerk, that’s for sure,” Virgil said.
“You know who I mean. That guy who stole all those billions of dollars. The Ponzi scheme.”
“Madoff”.
“Yeah. Him. They make him look like a piker,”(*) his old man said.
“That’s interesting”, Virgil said. “I don’t think I’ve heard the word ‘piker’ and ‘Madoff’ in the same sentence before.”
“So now you have”, his father said.
* (Piker: lazy person, shirker)
Impact of this information
The above is just a snippet. There must be many other examples. I came across these and thought they were interesting.
Wendy in her comments on Mike/BIC blogs, once mentioned “The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo”, by Stieg Larsson and its mention of Scientology. “The media have the ability to attract the craziest people to call in perfectly absurd tips. Every newsroom in the world gets updates from UFOlogists, graphologists, scientologists, paranoiacs, and every sort of conspiracy theorist.”
The above deepening morass makes new members a challenge for a large movement, never mind a small one. Discerning, interested people will still look and decide for themselves. New people interested in the subject would need attention from someone who cares, if the subject is to attract new participants.
Differentiation
If I tell you the car I have is a Japanese version of a sporty BMW, I have used positioning to create familiarity with you and my Japanese car.
There have been many reformed religious movements that have differentiated themselves from earlier versions of Christianity. The Church of England. The Calvinistic movement, the Dutch Reformed Church.
If the current Church is to survive it may have to re-emerge as a Reformed Church, differentiating itself from what has gone before. This would require a new set of leaders with empathy and vision and extreme tolerance. It would position itself as similar but different to the previous Church.
The emergence of such a reformed movement would probably in itself create further splits of those who are fundamentalists, and those would are prepared to throw out some of the policies that characterize the current Church.
After 2,000 years of Christianity, there are reportedly over 40,000 different Christian denominations.
A differentiated and modern and tolerant Reformed Church could have a no-disconnection policy, for example. You want to leave? Fine. Let’s have a celebration of all your contributions in the past. Thank you and go well. Do you want to split off and form your own group? Fine. Go ahead. Let us know if you fall on your head and we will help you get it back together. If you succeed, let us know what you are doing so we can evaluate its effectiveness for our own possible use. Sounds wild, but totally possible. No court cases. Just tolerance. No fights. Just help and assistance.
I said earlier that what happens to the Church in the future is a debate. I am not proposing the above as a solution, but suggesting one possible route.
Dissemination of the subject requires a 21st century approach. The Church is structurally and dogma-wise unable to do this.
“Books makes booms”, is dogma. It is hard, if not impossible for the Church to change this, in theory. Course hours are this or that only. The list of policies that are “held-down 7” dogma is long. Contradictory statements exist. Many. Freedom of association and speech versus ‘do not read the blogs’. What is true for you versus ‘KSW1’.
Current management has changed the dogma anyway (GAT I & II, Ideal Orgs, Executive CS’es for example), and thereby caused tons of defections and bad PR. So why could it not do so for positive reasons? Way to Happiness by free download, lectures on a flash-drive, the mind boggles.
Why can’t the change be positive? It is the intent of management, that’s why.
Any road forward would include at least one-on-one dissemination. The rest is toxic.
Keep the news flowing
Right now, we should keep the news flowing onto the blogs, keep people informed of the current Church happenings. This is a process that has been running for a while and needs to keep on doing so.
This all happens because of people who have made it their purpose to expose the truth about what is happening in the world of Radical Corporate Scientology. They are doing an amazing job. All help tremendously. And they are thanked for continuing to put the truth out there for others.
In addition to this blog (BIC), other links are suggested below:
http://www.mikerindersblog.org/
http://scientologymoneyproject.com/
http://www.scientology-cult.com/
https://www.youtube.com/user/SurvivingScientology
In my opinion, start with the sites above.
Tony Ortega’s site also has very good articles but be warned that the site also contains references to upper level material. A recent ‘looking in’ may find some of the subject material and ‘we hate the subject’ comments too steep a gradient. If so, skip them.
The books by Mark Headley, Amy Scobee, Jenna Miscavige-Hill, Nancy Many, Janet Rietsman, Jefferson Hawkins, Lawrence Wright, Marty Rathbun all help widen the awareness and understanding of what has gone on in the Church.
If you are not sure that leaving the current Church is wise, read and read and read some more, .
I started this journey horrified at what I read and saw and experienced. Slowly the picture widened and became more complete. The data is compelling.
My opinion is you could start with the following (in no particular order):
- Amy Scobee
- Mark Headley
- Jenna Miscavige-Hill
- Jefferson Hawkins
- Marty Rathbun
To those who are looking, please continue to do so.
The current Church is worsening the image and repute of the subject. No question. It should not be supported in its current form. It is not what LRH would do, believe it or not.
2015 kicked off to multiple court cases against the Church coming to a head, the March 16 release of HBO documentary “Prison of Belief” and Louis Theroux’s BBC film ‘Stairway to Heaven’.
The promotion of the HBO documentary positions Scientology as follows:
| A comment on Mike Rinder’s blog: “There have been hundreds of media articles that mention the documentary picks for Sundance and almost all of them mention campus rape and scientology side by side”.“SUNDANCE 2015 LANDS SCIENTOLOGY, KURT COBAIN AND CAMPUS RAPE DOCUMENTARY PREMIERES”or“….includes high-profile documentaries including “The Hunting Ground” which explores sexual crime on college campuses and institutional cover-ups, and “Going Clear: Scientology, the Prison of Belief”…” |
Jonsty also commenting on Mike Rinder’s blog gives yet another deepening of the terrible PR:
| “I was involved with SCN for over 30 years. My son knows the whole story of my involvement along with all the reasons for leaving. In a chat last week he asked, “What in the world is with those people harassing the guy at LAX?” After I explained the situation he commented that the whole university had seen the YouTube video…yes, an exaggeration that “all” had seen it, but his comment is also telling in its own right. He said that people he knew thought SCN and DM were nut-birds, and this was not based on any discussion of SCN…it was just based on general reddit and YouTube viewings”. |
(This video has been viewed on YouTube in excess of 696,000 times)
Final word
There is probably a ratio of the number of new interested people contacted one-on-one or body-routed into orgs or missions, versus the number of those put off daily by the bad PR. This ratio is the product of current Church management.
1 introduced by missions and orgs
1000 put off by media and the internet?
For those wishing to leave the Church as an organization but who wish to use the subject or practice it, there are many sites that can guide you to a place that will assist you.
It seems clear that the only long-term viability in staying with the subject is the creating new auditors.
There are many blogs, sites and facebook pages of Indy / Freezone centres and groups that deal with the subject of training of auditors. With just a little research, you will be able to find many sites that will interest you.
Bon voyage!
Your thoughts, comments and contribution to this article are most welcome.
Scientologists back in comm 
What a tasty article! How do you sum up the current isness of the world of scientology? This is how I reckon!
One thing is for sure is just how for good or bad, this subject despite its small following seems to have fantastic impact! I mean its a hot topic, spoken about in all media forms etc. Something to that, must be! Not bad considering only 40 000 public who use or used it in the last 20 yrs or so. (Broad generality). Certainly not in the millions as the church claims! For better or worse this subject will continue to make headlines for some time. This alone makes for an interesting study- what is scientology really?
I am certain about one thing though. The quest for true spiritual freedom will go on nonetheless! Only the yardsticks and policies surrounding it will change. People will have to think with the information rather than merely accept what they are told and test it out for themselves for workability or not. The days of dogma are done and dusted. The age of information has arrived. I could call it the age of personal look for oneself. The herd mentality is breaking. Its almost hip to be an individual and confident so these days!
Subjectively speaking I thrive on the freedom now available to all of us. I do what I will because I can. I use the tech because I choose to. I enjoy the brotherhood of man because I am of use to him as he is to me. I find much joy this way. Lessons by observation still thrill me. I accept without judgement others dont always have to agree.
Speaking of lessons.. the joy of creating and avoiding seriousness like people avoid the church is such a simple tool with everlasting effects (as long as you keep creating it)!! Anyone can subcribe to that.
Lets keep co-creating realities we enjoy!
The quest for spiritual freedom will continue. For sure it will Sheeple. Truly said.
Listen to or read My Big TOE (Theory of everything). Fascinating info.
Have you read Monroe’s books? Equally insightful. A guy goes exterior. Shat himself. Figured WTF and explored it further. Saw all manner of stuff whilst out and looking around. Started a foundation to get others to be able to do the same thing. Great reads.
*My Big Toe* was written by Tom Campbell, physicist at NASA and researcher of “consciousness” for over 3 decades – involving his own out-of-body experiences (exteriorization) as well as those of many others. He’s a scientist and used scientific protocol in the research. One thing I found pretty interesting about Campbell’s theory is how much it aligns with scientology.
The book is over 800 pages long. but he presents pretty much the whole theory in many youtube vids. He’s been all over the world doing speaking engagements, which were video’d and can be found on youtube. Here’s part 1 of a 3-part series he did over a weekend in Calgary, Canada, which gives an overview of the book. Part 2 goes into it more thoroughly, and part 3 is a workshop.
p.s. I should say his “theory of everything” aligns well with CORE scientolology, not how the subject evolved in the church.
Thank you for expanding my comment Miraldi. I have saved the video for later.
You’re so welcome, SC. I was delighted to see that you too have an appreciation of Tom Campbell and his work.
This I will definitely have a look see with for sure! I like comparing other viepoints of exteriorisation and see how they match up or dont with mine. This is evolutionary and reasonable. The good definition of “reasonable” hehe!
Sheeplebane, Tom Campbell and his partner Dennis Mennerich had quite a moment when they got their first conclusive proof that their OOB experiences were real. Below is an excerpt from Tom’s book *My Big TOE* (which you can read for free on Google books).
—————————
“One of our first experiments was for Dennis and me to take a trip (experience) in the nonphysical together. Our independent descriptions of what we were experiencing should correlate closely if the experience were real and independent of either of us. From the beginning of our training, we had learned to give real-time descriptions of whatever we experienced. A microphone was suspended from the ceiling above each of our heads. What we said was recorded on tape. Dennis and I could not hear each other because we were in separate soundproof chambers.
“Dennis and I quickly achieved the appropriate altered state, left our bodies, and met in the nonphysical as planned. It was a long adventure. We went places, saw things, had conversations with each other and with several nonphysical beings we happened to run into the long way.
“Bob had let us go a long time before he ended the session and called us back. We pulled off our EEG and GSR electrodes and stumbled out of the darkness into the hallway of the lab.
“In the control room, Bob was waiting for us. After a quick exchange, we knew that this would be a good test because we both had experienced many specific interactions. But were they the same interactions? Bob looked at us deadpan. ‘So you two think you were together?’ he asked, trying to sound disappointed. We looked at each other and shrugged our shoulders.
“‘Maybe,’ Dennis said tentatively, ‘at least we perceived meeting each other.’
“‘Listen to this!’ Bob said emphatically. The tapes, rewound as we disconnected electrodes and climbed out of our chambers, began to roll forward. We sat down and listened. The correlation was astonishing. For almost two hours we sat there with our mouths open, hooting and exclaiming, filling in the details for each other. Bob was now grinning. ‘Now that tells you something, doesn’t it?’ he exclaimed beaming. He was every bit as excited as we were.
“I was dumbfounded. There was only one good explanation: THIS STUFF WAS REAL! […]
We repeated that experiment with similar results. It wasn’t a phenomenon that depended on the two of us. Nancy Lea and I shared equally astonishing joint experiences. We tried other things as well. We read three and four digit numbers written on a blackboard next to the control room. Somebody would write a random number and we would read it while our bodies lay asleep. Then they would erase it and write another one, and so on and on. We went places – to people’s homes – and saw what they were doing, then called them or talked to them the next day to check it out…” (Thomas Campbell – My Big T.O.E.)
—————————-
Here’s the link if you want to continue reading where the above leaves off:
http://books.google.com/books?id=RYHtBPiZVgsC&pg=PA84&dq=%22trip+%28experience%29+in+the+nonphysical+together%22&hl=en&ei=750HTtqMKsvEswbvp9TbDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22trip%20(experience)%20in%20the%20nonphysical%20together%22&f=false
Typo on the second paragraph. It should end “…several nonphysical beings we happened to run into ALONG THE WAY.”
Also, just to note – “Bob” is Bob Monroe, who at the time was already well known for his book *Journeys out of the Body*, and later on founded the Monroe Institute.
Possibly the most realistic and down to Earth analyses of the situation I’ve ever read. Bravo.
A description of a future reformed church sounds quite promising and close to what I imagine. Honesty should really become the keyword for future reform. It could actually prepare to the fundamentalists from the start by offering different versions of the bridge: a pure-classic-LRH bridge, as it was laid in the 1980s, and an updated bridge, based on new, honest and open scientific research (for example, modern peer-reviewed science is unlikely to be kind to purif and to what Hubbard wrote about abortions and homosexuality). This would shake KSW, but keep the subject alive. (And in fact, a lot of people will probably prefer the pure-classic-LRH bridge!)
Honesty about Hubbard’s life is also needed. Some of the accusations about the dodgy things he did may well be true. Some of the hagiographic descriptions of his life in the current Bridge Pub books are likely to be wildly exaggerated. A realization that the subject is more important than the man and that honesty about the man’s life will only do the subject good will have a great effect on dissemination.
Your comment about different versions George is astute. It seems to already be that way in the field. In the Christian world, been around for centuries, isn’t there a Coptic movement somewhere? Small and still there, but it no longer has the goal of converting the planet to their religion? Nice comment.
Great comment George! +100 🙂
Another useful source of hard to find information is http://www.scientology101.org
Fabulous post, Rob. One of the sanest I’ve read. No bullshit here. It is what it is.
It’s important to have the real Why. To blame the current management constantly, is putting on the blinkers full time.
Thanks for this.
So many people are saying that they don’t care about the man, just about his works.
Really? Golly!
I guess entrapment is just that. One can’t see for looking because when one has been hynotised he doesn’t know it, does he?
It certainly answers the question as to why we all, except for a very few, took so long to get out. We were had – hook, line and sinker.
Clever, clever Hubbard. Very rich Hubbard.
Thanks Oluckyme.
The first page is mainly for those new to Scn. The section “For Scientologists” is probably more appropriate for Backincomm readers.
I like this post a great deal. It is well stated. It is exactly how it happens.
Thanks for providing it, Robert.
Thanks Canspeakatlast.
The first section is an account of what one can expect in the day to day life of being a Scientologist. These things WILL happen to one when one gets involved.
The section “Scientology Secrets” is more open to debate and many readers might disagree with some of the ideas. However, this section also provides a LOT of information which is probably new to Backincomm readers, information they would be hard pressed to find without spending hundreds of hours searching the net whilst trying to avoid finding any OT data.
I think any Scientologist owes it to themselves to at least LOOK at the photos, videos, quotes and analyses presented in this section so they are fully informed. After all, I’ve heard it said that the road to truth cannot be travelled half way.
“So in essence what happens is this: the person walks in the door at a particular level of happiness, let’s say 10. They come into the organization, get put into ruin, get told how terrible everything is, and they sink down to let’s say 7. As they go on longer and longer in Scientology they gradually drift down lower, till let’s say 4. Because it happens so gradually they usually don’t realise it. Then they get some Scientology counselling and pop up a notch, to let’s say 5. And so Scientology has “improved” them. But they never get back up to 10.”
Wow! Did this resonate with me! I was NEVER happy in Scientology. I questioned this many times. However, I always managed to come up with a good reason, eg, my life before was frivolous; or it had not purpose.
Talk about invalidating the truth!
Hi Inspired,
I can relate. My life is SO much better since I left!
I never actually had a concept of what “Total Freedom” was until I changed my paradigm and started participating in the real world.
I didnt experience it quite that way I must say. That many did is gastly! Amidst the insanity of execs dramtising DM’s enemy valence one could keep your wits about you by seeing what you could do by using the tech to make a real difference in other peoples lives ie. auditing others. But at some point in the church you realised that the organisation itself had decayed beyond salvation. Leaving it became the only option. Once out for me at least, I was free to use the tech outside the bubble. I then saw how incredible this was without the harassment. Gains were massive!
I hope others who have decided Scn was an utter ruin can one day separate the tech itself from that pesky ill begotten RCS monstrocity bereft of conscience! I really do. There is still much fun to be had should people want it.
Sheeplebane, Nice one. I reckon you nailed it perfectly! Though as you say, some of us saw the good and managed to differentiate that from the bad!
The point being, we actually MADE that evaluation for ourselves. I reckon that’s what kept “us”, from sinking into “throwing out the baby with the bathwater” solution. Same as throwing your formerly ‘daily use toolbox’, into the sea, because a couple of rats shat on the contents! That’s just mis-emotional over-reaction, at best, imo! When a pan of mild disinfectant, and a sponge and drying cloth to lay out the washed contents, while checking them over carefully, (Eval and examination for continued use) would be all the “qual” necessary, for continued use of those tools.
Idiotically simple as this may seem to you, me and others, I suspect that the reason we have the continuance of the baby/bathwater response, is mainly through an INability and/or an UNwillingness to duplicate /differentiate /evaluate/understand, the effectiveness of the “solution” in hand.
“Like, duh, er, wotchoocall, rocket science, Bubba??”
or– “duh, WHO invented dis friggin’ wheel, Ebineeza? “(after puncturing the friggn’ tyre by running over some NAILS!) –“I say off with his head!!!”
….. (sigh!) 🙂
“Being involved with Scientology is much like being in an abusive relationship—you don’t see how bad it really is whilst you are in it, but when you leave you wonder how you could possibly have put up with so much crap for so long.”
So, so true! And because you invested it and thought of it as a lifetime investment, you stuck it out long after all sense told you to leave!
Hi Happy Chappy,
Yip, that’s exactly why so many are still stuck in the orgs, clinging desperately to the idea that one day they might go “free.”
Such phenomena is described in Critical Thinking as “Loss Aversion” and it is a very real problem.
The lesson for me from the whole Scientology experience was that if I am to survive optimally I had better learn to think Critically.
I don’t hate Scientology. In fact I’m extremely glad I went through the entire experience. Had I not I might still be naive and stupid. As I’ve moved on the subject of Scientology itself has become of lesser importance. It could just as well have been some other cult I was involved in. Cult phenomena is a part of mankind and can be observed in followers of Crossfit, Banting diets etc. The main point to me is that only by learning the skills of Critical Thinking will we ever reach “Total Freedom”.
“This wonderful feeling doesn’t last for more than a few days at the most, but it is very real and it does feel rather good. The temporary nature of the gains means that Scientologists always want to go into session to get this feeling again. It is their “fix.” ”
This is exactly how it is, for me, at least. Those first years in were the unhappiest of my life; but the auditing did feel good, albeit for a few days. And I went back for more and more and more….
My life though had not improved in anyway. Instead, I’d lost all confidence, felt a lot of fear; and I wasn’t doing well financially. Yet, before Scientology, I did very well financially. And I wasn’t frightened.
Go figure!
Hi Diacoqueen,
It’s true what you say, I was also completely miserable for the first few years of my Scientology career. After a while I learned to endure and so life in the cult became tolerable to a certain degree, but never great. Before I joined staff (which was a month after I joined Scientology) I was well on my way to reaching the goals I had set for myself in life. The ensuing time I spent on staff set my life back 12+ years and I’m now playing catch-up. Thankfully I’m getting things back together again, despite being a “suppressive defrocked apostate responsible for the financial collapse of the org” :p
I know what your mean, Robert. Now that I’m out, my life has turned around. Careerwise I’m doing well which reflects in my income and ability to live a happy and fulfilling life of abundacne. There’s no longer fear. I sleep like a baby.
It also set my life back for 12 to 15 years. I could not afford to live decently, abundance had become unreal to me, I couldn’t even afford rent for my own place for many years. Looking back on that, it’s horrifying. That’s all changed, of course; and only because I walked out!
We’re a couple of lucky ‘uns. What’s taking the other so long but I hasten to say, I understand. It took me long enough. It’s taken me a while to understand why that was but I do now.
The problem I have in all of this controversy, is the ethnic cleansing goals. The Church has them and this is a cornerstone. Please look up ethnic cleansing if you do not understand it.
On the other side, there are people with ethnic cleansing goals of their own. People who will not rest as long as one Scientologist stands on this planet.
These people are really unified in purpose. Ethnic cleansing.
In these conversations, there have been very few beacons that can lay the truth on the table, with out having the drive to exterminate. I consider Karen, Marty and Mike to be among those. This blog has built a platform that is still well meaning while sharing valuable information.
I feel I want to support any human being that has worthy purpose. I have no urge to wipe out entire civilizations or cultures or groups.
I do not think we are going to rise above ethnic cleansing goals in our generation. Not planet wide, for another thousand years.
I take from many different groups, education. Right now I am in the center of a religious group, not the one I was raised in, but one I have never explored. And I am loving and needing the things I am learning. They know I am not one of them, and it just does not matter. Because I am helping them. They can see I am a friend. Their corner stone is humanity. The quality or state of being kind to other people.
I suggest to people now,to take whatever you think you might be able to use, from any one of your fellow man, if it helps you in some way. Help yourself. Help the people you love. Let it come from any place. Get your humanity in place.
The truth is, you do not have to defend or attack. It is a God given right to learn.
And if I have anything I can teach you myself, here today, it is to have patience. The ethnic cleansing purposes are not going to fade away in our generation. Or even the next one.
Learn what you can that will bring you into a better place in a better world. You will arrive in a better world. That better world is coming.
Love this! 🙂
Hi TO. Not ethics cleansing? 😄
Those are great views Oracle.
Ethnic cleansing goals can be handled by instilling in others the willingness/ability to “think for themselves” and by a heavy emphasis on far-reaching education programs on the subject of “Human Rights” ; a subject very misunderstood and widely unknown by many.
I think so.
….. (¯`v´¯)♥
…….•.¸.•´
….¸.•´
… (
☻/
/▌♥♥
/ \ ♥♥
Apparently, I am the only one, to think, “Remove all counter intention from the environment” is an evil purpose and an ethnic cleansing goal.
But if someone thought for a minute they were going to be “removed from the environment” for having counter intention, they might keep that counter intention on full suppress. Apologize for having some “counter” intention.
I can co exist with counter intention. Sometimes, it feels good!
Oracle wrote: On the other side, there are people with ethnic cleansing goals of their own. People who will not rest as long as one Scientologist stands on this planet.
Wow. Where on earth did you get this idea that *anybody* on the “anti-scientology” side wants to see scientolgists dead? I have *never* heard that. This is the biggest problem between critics and the Co$…and now with Oracle’s statement it makes me wonder how many others feel this way. Do you really think we give damn *what* you believe? It’s the abuse the church is engaged in that is the problem…and the law breaking, disconnection, etc. You want to believe and practice LRH tech and audit (redacted) the rest of your life? Great. Fine. Go for it. It’s no sillier than the stuff any other religion believes and if it gets you through life–who the hell am I to argue? And I won’t. However, if some Indie movement takes off and you follow LRH doctrine to the letter and continue to engage in the cruel ideas like disconnection, slave labor, etc. then everybody will be back at square one.
I am very disturbed that Oracle, and anybody else, might seriously think this. It’s ridiculous…and totally hypocritical considering why we speak out about the abuses in the church in the first place. Again, just wow. No wonder the critics are hated so bad if you think we want to exterminate you.
Lisa, If you look around, you will find anti’s who attack the church and the logic that the church uses. Some do so while using the same sense of logic of those that they accuse.
I am sorry, but the end does not justify the means.
LRH’s policies (plural) do work. But like everything else in the known universe, one must use intention and intelligence to do something properly (otherwise, it can backfire).
As an example, one could argue against disconnection, but if I was related to DM, I would have no problem with a disconnection from him. (Even if I wasn’t PTS to him, I would not want anything to do with him.)
I have no idea who the “we” is, that you refer to. I don’t even know you. Why you think “ethnic cleansing” has something to do with you, only you know.
If you haven’t noticed there are people who are concerned that they have to share this Earth with the ideas put forth by L.R.Hubbard, I don’t know what to say.
I don’t think you bothered to take the time to understand the meaning of ethnic cleansing.
You obviously do not know me at all if you think :
“You want to believe and practice LRH tech and audit (redacted) the rest of your life? Great. Fine. ”
I have no idea who you are talking to or why you think of me as you do. Why you are shocked to hear that there are people who would prefer all evidence of L. Ron Hubbard’s ideas be removed as they dangerous to society.
I bought these two statements from another blog and they are as fresh as this week:
“The number of Indys who are koolaiders still is sometimes frightening.”
“Hubbard destroyed his own legacy by his own immoral narcissistic evil behavior. His unwitting naive minions were his students who learned how to be soldiers which committed acts in his name, which created his legacy.”
“Scientologists have hacked the American Legal system.”
“Many Indys, ex-Scientoloists cannot confront the truth of it.
I suppose it’s understandable perhaps in that that they’re still under hypnosis, still implanted. ”
“(Hubbard) is not dead. Not yet. But if we do our job well, we can extricate him from the minds of those who believed that he is the only hope for man”.
Really, if I tried to post all of the statements here that are relative to ethnic cleansing, just from conversations this week, I could be here all day.
This does not include entire religious cultures on this planet right now, that would view any other religion beyond their own as a threat.
Please educate yourself.
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of making it ethnically or religiously homogeneous.
Plus more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
Hi Lisa, I don’t think Oracle feels that the “anti” group really wants anyone dead. But I can tell you that I have read and studied pretty much most blogs, articles, books and other public opinion platforms on the subject of SCN – from the one end of the spectrum to the other. And just like I find the “everything is wonderful and it’s all good” attitude alarming, I also found the other end of the spectrum really scary.
As you stated, “Do you really think we give damn *what* you believe?”
Well, yes we do think you give a damn. If you didn’t, then why the railing and raging against the subject and the people who believe in it?
There definitely is a sentiment – admittedly from a small minority – (and I am not including you here if it doesn’t apply) that SCN and everything or everyone related to it should be wiped off the face of the earth. Good, bad, ugly or indifferent – it doesn’t matter – ALL of it should be wiped out. As I said, a small minority but they do exist. Some of the content I have seen and read is vitriolic and venomous in the extreme. I have seen disgusting photo-shoops of LRH, DM and SCN symbols (and I’m not talking about the light comedic ones). I find this hurtful and distasteful. I place the perpetrators of such in the same “hater” category of the fundamentalist Churchies who do similar on their own smear websites and “Freedom” magazines etc. I hold Squirrel Busters and OSA operatives in the same category as some of the people who have made frighteningly horrific comments on Facebook forums against SCN and Scientologists – they ALL spew hate, they ALL denigrate, and they ALL deserve contempt.
I too stand for wiping out the ABUSE in Scientology. But I also believe in and have personally benefited a great deal from my association with the subject. I was witch-hunted, victimised and put through the wringer by the Church. I lost hundreds of thousands in fraudulent crush reg cycles. I have put up with malicious slander, rumour mongering and suffered family disconnection and the premature death of my mother who had her heart broken by my sister who subjected my mom to enforced disconnection by instruction of OSA.
Despite all of that, I have chosen not to wrong-target the technology and instead have recognised that just like any other philosophy/religion or theology out there, in the wrong hands and being used for malevolent purposes, it can be and is extremely dangerous – extremely so.
By way of an example, look at the Catholic Church and it’s bloody history of Inquisitions, burnings at the stake and Crusader wars. A classic example of twisting the word of God for nefarious means. Throughout history, there have been and always will be a certain type of personality who will twist, alter and find a way to use any technology, religious philosophy or dogma for malevolent purposes. This has to do with the personality and not the subject matter.
Were I go onto a “hate” forum and dare breathe a word that I benefited from SCN, I will most assuredly incur an onslaught of hellfire & damnation from SCN abolitionists telling me that I am “deluded” that I have been “hypnotised”, been “conned” and a host of other denigrations and invalidation on my person and character. I am no more likely to arrive on Tony’s blog to espouse my sentiments of the benefits of SCN than I am to jump off a cliff. (And by the way, I respect and admire Tony and have had good dealings with him personally – I am just not stupid enough to open myself to haters on the blog).
Chatting to a friend last night, we were talking about how the media have made such a big deal of “Two Scientologists walk away with Grammy awards”. Why is this even necessary? How come we don’t see headlines saying “Two Christians won an Emmy” or “Four Catholics won medals at the Olympics”? All of these religions/dogma’s or beliefs have skeletons in their closet and a history of MAJOR human-rights abuses – just like SCN. Why is SCN such a “hot topic”? Perhaps there IS some good in it after all, and maybe THAT is what scares people.
It’s something to think about.
Lisa, where Oracle wrote “On the other side, there are people…”, she wasn’t talking about EVERYONE on that other side. In other words, “there are people” – not meaning all, but some – who have ethnic cleansing goals (even if they don’t realize this is essentially what their goals amount to). I think you would agree there are people like that.
Oracle, you are so right. The urge to exterminate, that’s awfull. I don’t see the point to make the subject of scientology vanished.
We have been working so hard for so many years to make it survive and now we should be happy to see it destroyed, that doesnt make sens.
Look like a scenario to destroy it.
– Put a madman at the top.
– 30 years of alter is of the subject. Till the repute of the subject is completely destroyed.
– Do enough injustice to make even the faithfull follower becoming dedicated haters.
– Have the “management” continue to do insane actions.
– Do it worse and worse.
– Once “independant” people finally become hater.
– Even few groups which are still delivering scientology become ashame to use this name, to practice any part of the tech.
– The tech developped by Hubbard is dead.
There is no reply under your reply to me, so I jumped back up here to post.
First, I don’t need to educate myself on what ethnic cleansing is-I know exactly what it is. Just to make sure you know I get it, you are saying that you think critics of scientology want to wipe all sci’s off the face of the earth. Dead. Gone. Extinct. What Hitler tried to do with the Jewish people last century.
Secondly, again. I am a critic and I have read LRH writings/policies, etc. In my opinion, it’s all bunk. Who cares though? Honestly, I think ALL religion is bunk. Again, it’s not my place to dictate what people want to believe-if it gets you through life, more power to you, as long as you are not hurting anybody else, it’s just not my business or anybody (govt, ppl, etc) else’s.
Since I am a critic, I have never heard anybody talk about getting rid of all the sci’s on earth. Never. Are there people that think LRH’s ideas are dangerous and wish he never would have thought of it? Absolutely, I am one of them. It’s all too 1984/fascist/snitch culture’ish for me. However, that cat is already out of the bag. There is no going back. His books and ideas are published and that cannot be taken back and I have never heard anybody advocate book burning, ever. Yes, people have joked about his stuff, all the time. Most of us are against things like the burning of books…’cause it usually leads to the burning of people next…I’m sure you have heard that before. That idea is more dangerous than anything LRH ever wrote.
I just want you and anybody else here to know that nobody on the anti side wants you dead. All that BS is in your head. Every single quote you posted below proves MY point. Yes, they are all anti-sci/tech/LRH but nowhere does any thing say to murder you.
I don’t know how to make it any more clear than if you want to be a scientologist and call it your religion, go for it. Nobody cares *what* you believe, but if you start up RPF camps with rampant slave/child labor, etc you can bet people will protest. That is what the OP was talking about…how to move forward with all the bad blood/PR. Can the movement change, etc? I find the topic fascinating which is why I read here. Maybe you guys can split and do something different, I don’t know…if you follow LRH’s doctrine (which says you cannot alter things or you are a squirrel) I don’t see how you can…which means something has to change…but that is for you guys to decide and work out.
Oh, and for 1984 re: disconnection. I totally agree that if I knew Miscavige (or somebody like him) I’d cut the little bugger out of my life too. HOWEVER, that is very different than a church or some other entity/person demanding that I do that under threat of getting kicked out of my church and not being able to talk to any of my friends and family again. You cannot even compare the two things.
Again, nobody on the anti side wants any of you dead.
Well what is becoming annoying to me, is the people attacking me for how I have lived my life, how I have spent my time, and how I have spent the money I worked for. Like I owe someone an apology. The gall! And if I am not out of ARC with the life I have lived, and who I have been, and angry and apologetic, I must be stupid.
Nobody out here paid a dime for my auditing or training. Nobody out here did the volunteer work I have done.
If I am cool with my life, why the hell does someone want to take that out from under and discount it?
I’m not stopping anyone from criticizing anyone or hating anyone.
Marty comes out here after 30 years of volunteer work, HUGE sacrifice. People demanding that he apologize for his life? Most have never met him.
When did one of these people even give him a dime for phone call?
I feel fine to draw a line in the sand. I own who I have been, nobody paid my way but me. I don’t owe anybody an apology for who I have been or am or what I have done with my life.
I do not regret the time I have spent exploring Scientology. Why should someone who never laid out a dime on my behalf, expect an apology? Judge me, or anyone else.
You jump on my post in opposition. You speak for EVERYONE and for “we”.
Bullshit. I have not said anything untrue.
I have an 82 year old friend out here that raised 11 children. She has grandchildren. She has friends. Sher has a huge life. She is discounted, everything she has ever done, as a “kool aid drinker”. Because she finds Scientology very useful. That someone can just log on the internet and make NOTHING of this mother of 11 is straight up F&*$&^g disgusting.
The “spiritual supremacy” isn’t just in the Church of Scientology.
I really like the way you present your arguments Lisa.
You are well balanced, honest and straight to the point ; I like that.
We need more “critics” like you out here. I might not agree with your viewpoints regarding Scn , but I do respect a lot divergences presented so well and in a very balanced way as you did. I think that Scientologists and “Critics” can co-exist and even get along very well. I would gladly chat with you over coffee were you near my area.
ARC , PETER
Hi Lisa
Thanks for visiting our blog and giving your point of view. It’s appreciated.
Frankly, I don’t think people in general outside the cult really care one way or another. There is an impression, IMO, that for the most part, Scientologists seem to think their “religion” is so important. On a planet of seven or so billion people, Scientologists number about 40 000 in totem, not even a drop in the ocean.
They’ve been lead to believe that Scientology is the saviour of this planet and will bring eternity to its members. Some ex-members of the church do believe to some extent that it IS the answer to everything. Therefore, the tendency can be to defend Scn fiercely. We know now that Scn is not going to “save” anyone and that at most, it’ll make a some people feel a bit better which is not to be sniffed at. Some might even change for the better to sufficiently improve their lot.
Scientologists, and I am an ex-one, can feel superior to the rest of the world, which is part of the set up. The man did tell us we were the top ten percent of the top ten percent, or something to that effect. Perhaps, there are some who still believe that.
For the rest of what you’ve said, I tend to agree with you. Now that I’m out and having extricated myself somewhat from the mind control and the hero worship, I agree with you. It is for the most part ramblings which are not only that but dangerious, too. We’ve not been shown how to think for ourselves but have been forbidden to look outside of the religion or beyond Mr Hubbard. In fact, this was demanded of us and it became an ethical matter if we dared to do otherwise.
I hope we see you here again/often. 🙂
And Lisa, The statement I made:
“On the other side, there are people with ethnic cleansing goals of their own. People who will not rest as long as one Scientologist stands on this planet.”
I have no idea why you have chosen to make this all about you and some people you represent. You made it about you, then went on for two essays about how it has nothing to do with you. I have no idea why.
But if you mean to report that communities that are beheading people for only being Christians, are welcoming Scientologists with open arms. That is just fresh news for me.
The Oracle – Talking to the bank doesn’t seem to help much. Go Socratic with it: When you say all religion is bunk, what do you mean by “religion?” Can you explain to me what religion is? Ah, I see. A belief. What is your belief?
http://www.mikerindersblog.org/despite-everything-la-org-is-empty/#comment-77762
Lisa, IMHO, I think that your emotion is blocking your abilities to duplicate what is being said. (It may help to re-read, in a new unit of time.)
Nickname, I never said all religion was bunk. You are using my name and responding to someone else. I hope. I have no idea what you are talking about.
Oracle – You did not say all religion is bunk. Lisa did, IIRC. I suppose I should have used quotation marks to make it clear that what I meant was, that you might consider asking HER “When you say religion, what do you mean?” And I did not mean to offend you by making a suggestion that perhaps you might consider a tactic other than direct countering.
Thank Nickname. XXOO
Ethics, per the Church, is ethnic cleansing. The purpose of ethics is to remove other intention and counter intention from the environment. That is ethnic cleansing. The purpose of the Sea Org is to put ethics in. The purpose of the Sea Org, is ethnic cleansing.
As long as you use Scientologese you will be a slave to L. Ron Hubbard and his trap. You didn’t need him or his tech before you knew of it and you don’t need it now. Fact.
And yet here you are Pedro commenting amoung those who still use “scientologese” to communicate. Isnt that interesting? Tell us your story so we can understand why you made such a sweeping statement that rides upon strong certainty.
From happy slave 😉
Perdrofcuk who the fcuk are you? OSA, CIA or simply dumb?
🙂
Man after my own heart, Pedrofcuk.
Fascinating article. I’m not sure however that things can be turned around. DM has done too good a job at destroying the Church. No matter what you do, you’ll have his actions looming over you like the Sword of Damocles.
I come at this as a Never-In, so i don’t have the emotional attachment many of you have to Scientology. It is easy for me to write it off.
But… I always did like desperate last stands. Go for it, and I’ll cheer you on.
Wayne. Good of you to follow this saga. It must surely be interesting at least as a never-in.
I am not sure either that things can be turned around, but there are many very decent people doing what they can outside the current church. I respect them and what they do.
milestonetwo is another group of guys doing what they are doing to deliver the tech as they see it. All forms and versions of delivery have their place in post church manifestations. I don’t think one group should rail against another group or person.
Marty Rathbun has his space on the dynamics of milestontwo and Rons Org. They too are co-inhabitors of Marty’s chosen planet.
I wonder what independent activity there is in the UK. Does anyone know? It seems quiet across the water.
Anyway, thanks for giving us your views.
I’m a writer. Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror. Understanding people is a big part of writing.
Besides, it makes a fascinating read.
I think some people did not get the memo issued by Milestone people.
THEY ARE NOT INDEPENDENTS.
https://milestonetwo.wordpress.com/2014/07/24/not-an-indi/
Wayne Borean
It’s interesting we have the same viewpoint… You a “never in” and I was in for 40 years..
DM’s disastrous PR has broadly communicated to English speaking people about his childish and viscous “tantrums” and now Scientology- Scientologists are considered more or less as “nuts” as he is. And, he IS nuts. A true sociopath.
DM’s PR as a “nut case” is the the Sword of Damocles hanging over any would-be-reformers of Scientology.
Any attempt to repair that train wreck would cost $ billions in advertising. But could some brave souls struggle to make Scientology survive after DM?? I think the Yugo automobile had a much better chance and they failed. The first one was made in 1978 and the last was 2008. About the same as DM’s reign.
DM does come across as a total nutcase. I don’t know if he is a sociopath, or if he is just a small man trying to do a big man’s (or woman’s) job.
It doesn’t matter. What matters is the damage he has done. As the article states, his impact is toxic.
This is one of those cases where reality is stranger than fiction. If I wrote a story including the history of the Church of Scientology, it would be rejected by most editors as unbelievable.
Interesting article. Sounds like we are looking at the death throes of a movement. Disaffection in the field. The question is; “Can Scientology be saved”? Maybe, I think it can but right now it seems to be contracting. New ideas are needed.
Yes indeed Travers. Though perhaps ALL we may really need, is to RE-adopt one old stable datum — the original purpose of Dianetics & Scientology — simply to TRAIN Auditors, who can and DO Audit! 🙂
How RTC and company (DM, etc.) took control of the Church? By force ! How can be taken it back? The same way. Exposing their crime into society. Why (are people) critical about LRH. Listen the tape “Why people do not like you” Why DM is doing what he is doing? Same tape apply. Their Technology is divide and conquer our Technology should be stay united. Does not matter if you are in the Church, independent , FZ etc. We need to stay united and take back our Technology. LRH did not gave it to them. Why we have to give it to them?
(Specific names redacted by Blog Admin) – not germane to comment substance.
Travers, Can Scientology be saved? Scientology has so many meanings to so many people right now. Some people have personified the word as if it is some big being with a life of it’s own. Laughter!
I think a danger formula would help. Bypass normal habits and routines.
But there are people that consider that a crime. Excluding others. Heavy ethics. Enforced taxes and government. Blah blah all the things that made it a liability to many.
And you get people leave the Church and come out here and do a repeat of the same old thing. No correction, no qual, Not able to apply a danger formula. Not able to bypass normal habits and routines. In fact, not able to function unless they repeat the routines.
The people that are keeping something of it going, are the people that have been able to think with ethics and qual.
I think the group in Israel would be the best example. They obviously had no problem bypassing normal habits and routines, handling the situations and any danger in it.
They are not beating people up. Carrying on witch hunts. Torturing their clients.
Excluding people. They are just nice people doing what they like to do. Helping others.
They got hit, they referred it to legal. Kept it going. They audit, and train. They created an organization. They took the high road.
As a group, they were able to shape shift. Change. It’s a grade after all.
If a person needs to go up the grade chart, so must an organization right? Because that is people. You have at Grade lV, Ability to move out of fixed conditions into ability to do new things.
If a person is not grade lV release, they can not use a danger condition formula. They can not bypass normal habits and routines. Because they can not move out of fixed conditions it has been placed in.
This arena of Scientology on the grade chart right now, is in a grade zero process. Ability to communicate to anyone to anyone on any subject.
In some circles. Like here on this blog!
Some people are further, they got over the hostilities of life about it and so on. The ones still curious about any value are there.
It helps to look at the subject as something that is also moving up the grade chart.
To the extent that the people involved can carry forward what was beneficial, in a way that demonstrates abilities gained on the grade chart, what was beneficial can be saved. Even shared.
I mean, I don’t get why any Scientologist would be ARCXen with Marty. He changed. People change. It isn’t healthy to remain in fixed conditions. If it were, moving out of fixed conditions and the ability to DO NEW THINGS wouldn’t be on the grade chart!!! He is a product.
Honestly, it just amazes me how many people really align themselves with Scientology and they really don’t get it!!!!
And if CHANGE disturbs David Miscavige, his grade lV is out! Instead of getting his grade lV put in, he sends soldiers out to keep the things the SAME and maintain the status quo!!
He can’t tolerate change and his Church is delivering the grades!!!!
Great summary of the current scene with Scn , SC !
And very sensible viewpoints.
Now this is a bloody good article!! It fully describes the current scene exactly and should be broadly disseminated. Well done Special Correspondent.
+100 Roxy – agreed. It’s like a compendium of truth. Much useful data here – it’s worth a careful study and keeping in one’s arsenal the next time you have to confront and handle a KA ranting off about “SP’s” and parroting the company line of “straight up and vertical expansion”.
Thank you Roxy and all those who have commented so far.
It is a tough deal for those wondering what to do about the scene. I hope this helps to point at some routes along better awareness of what the rocks in the road in fact are.
There’s the visible “Bridge.”
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However, what unites Scientology is the “hidden Bridge” which, as Marty Rathbun has noted, is hypnotic in nature, and is interwoven throughout the visible Bridge.
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This is the aspect of the “Bridge” about which both corporate Scientologists and Independent Scientologists are in deep denial. It’s invisible to them.
Perhaps if you care to explain what you mean by “hidden Bridge” , others can properly argument about it ; otherwise it just become “noise” , dear Boggle.
Boggle: Yeah. I would also like to know what you mean by this comment.
If this your own opinion please state so, and explain how you came to this self-observed viewpoint.
Otherwise It sounds like you’re just parroting others’ viewpoints.
It’s pointless, Peter. Once “they” have lost sight of the basic purpose, (train to audit, give auditing / receive auditing, all for the gain of increasing awareness), it is then “they” who have themselves fallen prey to hypnosis!
(that is, UNaware of now being ‘other’ determined!)
Aberration – Latin aberrare – to wander off (from a straight line)
Obnosis – to observe the obvious. (not going to happen for some!)
I guess what amazes me most, is how some believe they are going to go forward — by going backwards! LOL 🙂
ARC, Calvin.
“Arranging a “Bridge” was just another way for Hubbard to keep people paying for more.” –
The REAL reason for the Bridge? The HIDDEN Bridge?
Racing,
Some have had the realization that the actual basic purpose of Scientology is not the stated, advertised, purpose of Scientology.
.
That’s hard to discuss on this blog because of the super sensitivity to the ideas and information required to discuss it.
Boggle its ok to agree to disagree ya know. Your bias or mine may be as divergent as can be. However its our choice to see what we see and communicate such. Who needs to convert the other over to their side to be right?
Perhaps we are both right? I have not lived in your shoes, how do I know what experiences that led you to your conclusions?
If I then make you wrong for your perspective do I not then perpetuate the great divide and promote yet more conflict? Seems this is a micricosm of earth culture today!
I will instead try to understand why you feel the way you do so strongly and bless you for it. That way no enemies are created. A rather simple solution really. If however it is your purpose to create conflict amoung those who disagree with you Im afraid all I will do is ignore you. Understand?
It’s even harder, when “some” have resorted to bigotry, while travelling backwards. Thus becoming ensnared with distortions and misconceptions that make up the very material intended to be handled with the above mentioned basic purpose. Even more of a mental traffic jam to deal with, than the original faulty traffic light.
Some simple advice for you, dear muddled, Boggle. Keep out of the “traffic”!. Your sense of avoiding “collisions”, has been severely compromised.
Poor, disorientated chap. Really seems to have lost his way……
How sarcastic and superior you are, Racing. And just downright rude.
It sounds to me as if Boggle is quite a few steps ahead of you. You’ve been running on the same spot for quite some time now whereas Boggle has long since sprinted way passed you.
Hi Racing,
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Once I had read your comment, I could not help but notice the difference between your comment and the comment above yours,made by Sheeplebane.
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What amazes me about fundamentalists is their belief in their own views and the easy with which they invalidate opposing viewpoints. In adopting this stance, they unwittingly create others as their opponents. This speeds their desire/need to enforce their own reality.
.
Hubbards’ scale of Emotional Tones, clearly shows that as one ascends, one experiences more understanding(ARC), more honouring of others and their views, and more harmony.
.
“Poor, disorientated chap. Really seems to have lost his way……” very patronising of you.
Just a comment for the following fellow “Boggle’rs” who invariably show up here on cue, in his defense: Hi Guys. Awww, i’m flattered that you take me soooo seriously. Have fun! 🙂
Let me see, Inspired, you are saying that thousands of people who attest to having had great wins and many abilities regained as the result of having gone up the Bridge are somehow delusional ?
That’s just faulty logic , I am afraid , and lack any scientific methodology to it. Seems you are only “parroting” what you’ve heard before from others.
Let me be clear enough here ; I am not exactly a fan of LRH. He is not my leader nor “The saint of my devotion”. In fact , were I to meet with him again , I would thoroughly sec check him and FPRD him after saying hello to him. And I would have a fully rehabilitated great leader with me.
Having said that , the workability of a subject is not determined by the character and personality of that one who created it , but is only determined by the degree that it accomplish its intended products. To the degree that it brings about greater freedom for the individual.
The Scn Bridge, though not a perfect Bridge by a long ways , DOES work for the individual in helping him achieve greater spiritual awareness and regained abilities. I myself have helped hundreds of individuals with that , and I am a scientist before being any -ist(s) . Are you trying to say that all the wins that thousands of auditors have given to thousands of individuals are just illusions and the product of”imagination” ?
For each individual complaining that Scn didn’t work for him I can show you 20 that can attest that it DID worked for them. Are you even a trained auditor ? How many auditing hours have you delivered in your life ? I have personally delivered thousands with great results. How can anyone who hasn’t actually “been in the chair” delivering auditing for years , possible have a unbiased viewpoint about what auditing can or can’t accomplish ? That just too one-sided and lack professionalism in the extreme.
The Scn Bridge follow a very logical and gradient course of action that takes into account the very reasons why anyone is experiencing varied difficulties with his life.
You first clean the body (if needed at all depending on their drug history) of toxic elements that can keep a person craving for bodily sensations creating a continual PTP that will prevent any case gain. It is a very well known datum that drugs heavily affect the body, even years after having consumed them. Let me point out that in the field of Natural Medicine, the cleansing of the body as related togeneralwellbeingness,is VERY ancient with a lot of accumulated empirical data. This is NOT something new that Scn discovered.
I am a fully trained Purif I/C and C/S myself who handled all kind of drug cases for 3+ years. That’s was my first Scn post when I became staff some decades ago. I was in a privileged position to see with my own eyes the many reactions that the participants experienced.
They ranged from full restimulations of past drug effects where the EXACT sensations were in full bloom right there in PT ,to flare ups of past sunburns where the exact bathing suit pattern was showing itself in the person’s body as the original swiming suit that the individual wore at the time of that particular sunburn. I WAS there ; this just isn’t something somebody told me. And those were not sporadic manifestations but rather the usual ones.
It is almost obvious that an individual have accumulated bad experiences as the result of their drug consumption. They exist right there in the mind in form of mental pictures. So the next logical step as needed is the handling of that mental part of the problem with the Scn Drug RD or NED DRD depending on the case.
Next you approach the mind with a gradient of confront of mental pictures using simple recall process that stresses light incidents and good experiences , as in the “Scn ARC Straight Wire”. The individual get used to look at his past and discover that he isn’t just “going to die” or “get ruined” by looking at it. He discover that all is not that bad after all , and that probably there is hope for him.
Notice how you first provisionally pulled him out of all the mental masses where he was stuck at and dramatizing, with the use of Objective processes. Now he was ready to gradiently begin to confront his mind and his past.
Next , now that you have put him, first in comm with his surroundings (objectives) and in comm with his past (ARC SW) , you put him in full communication with others ; a VERY logical and sensible next step. Yo take him and disentangle all comm blocks that he have in PT in general and with specific terminals. You do that with Grade Zero.
Notice how you do not begin to deal yet with any O/Ws (the real cause of many of his difficulties) as he isn’t even ready yet to confront his life transgressions and his “bad” past.
Now that he can communicate, he is ready to begin to confront his life problems. He is sufficiently there and sufficiently discharged so as to begin to take a look regarding his own participation in the creation of his difficulties.
He realizes that to have a problem in the first place, something is not being thoroughly confronted. He learns (I hope he does( about the “dual nature” of life.
He begins to actually create a life now that he can handle problems better. He WON’T stop manifesting any particular problem at all, as many critics doesn’t seem to understand, as he has not necessarily stopped assuming the identities (terms and oppterms) dictated by the dozens GPMs that he might be dramatizing. Remember that in Scn 0-IV we are mostly keying-out and noterasing.We are ONLY destimulating things so that we can advance and tackle head on his basic bank. So he will exhibit or can potentially exhibit, his many GPM’s manisfestations , and can even be bent towards a specific destructive course of action dictated by the goal and identity that he is currently playing (which – has probably been playing for eons).
Probably the Scn Grades should never had had in the first place such an absolute and sweeping statement of their End Phenomena as described in the Scn scriptures. They are almost never that sweeping and absolute. They DO help immensely, but they are not all-encompassing and sweepingly effective.
Next the individual is ready to confront his “overtness” and many misdeeds that sent him down the shute into a state of suffering and misery. It was his OWN actions or failures to act that created his suffering regardless of what was done to him. This fact is SO hard to understand for SO many, that I don’t really think that most scientologists really achieved this full End Phenomena but only a great relief from confronting their “overtness” for probably the firsr time. But, as far as I am concerned, from my research into this, this is the KEY step and Grade where the Bridge needs correction. Grade II Should take as long as it takes to bring about a realization that “you are the full Cause of EVERY problem or difficulty that you have ever experienced in your life”. W/out that specic Cognition, a true EP of “Cause over the suffering and hostilities oflife in ALL FLOWS” , can’t be stably achieved.
This Cog takes what it takes. This misguided emphasis in speed of delivery by the Church and even from LRH himself is ONLY based on FEAR (fear of future consequences, your basic “KSW #1 material) , and not in common sence. Scn turned into something else after the mid ’60s with all the paranoia from LRH.
Next you handle big upsets that are holding the individual’s attention and creating constant restimulations. All past ARCxs with terminals and MEST ; all the changes that the person experienced. All the stops that the person is dramatizing which is keeping encysted charge in place. Here you handle the incredible charged area of “wrong indications” (out-lists), and suddent drops in ARC.
Having been relieved all upsets from his past and now with his attention units freed up from that area, he is ready to begin confronting his FUTURE and ready to examine in detail his own uninspected ideas that are keeping him stuck in life, not moving. He is creating his own “stuckness” but he doesn’t know this yet. He is solving many of his life problems with old and unworkabke “solutions” from his past ; his “safe solutions”.
He has been “explaining away” his failures in life with many “Wrong Whys” , none of which, brought any closer to the ideal scene his life. He is operating with fixed, unworkable, uninspected computations he adopted in a period of great confusion. They were his “Safe Solutions”. Safe for the survival of his bank, all right.
So, with this step he can finally start moving in life towards his purposes, more real ones, and can actually begin to think in terms of “Products”. He has been “corrected” as an awareness level. Now with all this in place, he can finally confront head on his bank with DNs techniques, and while doing so, finally realize that he created it all in the first place just to stay in the game. So he is willing to just let go ,and to actually start having purposes of his own.
Now, it is not a fact at all, that everybody who have never done those Grades doesn’t have the EPs of them to a greater or lesser degree. That’s not a fact at all, otherwise, we wouldn’t have all the wonders that we DO have in Humanity. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have had all the great leaders and minds that this planet has and has had.Otherwise, we wouldn’t have all the great people that we DO have in this planet coming from ALL denominations. In fact, there are lots of people incredible more capable and spiritual aware than many Scientologists. So let’s lose the “self-righteous” button that many of us have.
Now, I challenge anybody to bring sensible arguments to the table as regards to how is it that those graduated steps to achieve greater abilities and understandings of life is not a REAL BRIDGE.With good arguments if you please, not just parroting others.
So, the next time someone want to talk about “Hidden Bridge” , better be an accomplished Class VI and VIII at least. Then, your arguments might have some validity at least.
ARC,
PETER
Thetaclear,
.
Looks like you’ve got an answer for everything with that fabulous tech that enchants you so.
.
Many others were similarly enchanted, and Scientology became a devious and abusive mind-control cult while they applauded enthusiastically.
.
Mmmmm….
Dear Boggle ,
The problem that I have with your “arguments” is that they are just deviations from the subject matter , and just plain Q&A with just honestly and intelligently debating a subject. You just keep parroting “Scn is evil and diabolical” , and “the hidden Bridge” bla, bla, bla , w/out backing up your arguments. And you then excuse yourself by alleging that were you to thoroughly explain yourself, you would probably get moderated. That’s just easy explanations. The fact of the matter is that You could have explained yourself anytime you wanted if only you applied correct manners to the issue in question.
I am sure the BCI Admin would allow correctly explained arguments put forth w/out plain unsupported generalities. I mean, have you even looked at the many posts on this thread ? Comments oppossed to LRH and Scn abound here but yet, they were allowed. You know why ? Because they presented them with proper manners and with backed-up arguments.
Are you afraid of debating with me publicly ? What do you have to lose ? I am just a fundamentalist-fanatical Scientologists under the spell of LRH according to you. It should be easy for you to beat me, right? Wouldn’t it feel good to publicly defeat the self-righteous Thetaclear ? I mean, I am just an untrained guy, uncleared, from the middle of nowhere. A robot to “Authority”. So go ahead , prove me wrong. But with sound arguments and not vague generalities.
If you want we can also do it privately. I am making it very easy for you. Just ask BIC Admin for my e-mail address.
I have no problem with your dislike for Scn and LRH. Gee, I don’t even like him that much myself. You know this quite well. If you got hurt by Scn, then I am really sorry ; I really am. But assuming a “victim” viewpoint isn’t going to make it any easier for you either. So protest all you want and dislike all you want. It IS your right to do so and I will protect your right to hold to your opinions and express them. But don’t expect any respect from me if all you’ve been doing is uttering comments with broad unsupported generalities , communicated with hostility and a failure to grant beingness to others.
Examine all the posts in detail and see the many obvious comments unsupportive of Scn and LRH , and BIC allowed them. So this constant complain of yours about being moderated has really no truthful basis. I suggest you make a self-inspection and find what exactly are you doing wrong to apparently being so much the effect of others. There is definitively, some idea you are failing to inspect here. Find it, confront it, and you’ll be capable of reaching and withdrawing from the subject. Right now you are just being too one-sided. It is obviously not working for you , otherwise you would be listened to.
Have a nice day.
ARC, PETER
A brilliant and eloquent reply, Peter. You make the case for the positive side of Scn better than almost anyone I know.
Thanks for the validation Maurice ; most kind of you.
Take care.
ARC, PETER
What a spot-on, and sterling reply, Peter. And you did it with kindness, education, and logic. Bravo!
Thanks Ronnie ; most kind of you.
ARC, PETER
Thanks Peter. Scientology has been in trouble only when it lacks to apply audting with good conscience with the well being of the PC in mind. You first have to be able to observe your PC and really find where he stands.
It’s not this automatic actions that you do like a robot dreamed by this little DM.
I hava also audited 1000 of hours of dianetics (R3R, R3Ra) and grades. I have seen PC having sometime nice life change for the better. As Hubbard says it takes a little time to groove it in.
The well combed little monster has perverted it beyond belief in wrecking technical basics.
As you said about grade 2, auditing overts give a great relief to people. Let’s say, you cheated your wife one evening. Of course it was rather easier not to tell. But to some degree you felt a decrease of happiness.
Your auditor ask you for an overt. It’s awful you can’t tell it. You think that even thinikng of it now it’s an overt also. He gets you to tell all, you suddenly feel an immense feeling of freedom. He acknowledge you and the cycle is complete. it’s finished. At no point the auditor made you guilty or even seemed to have a slight jugement of what you did. Nord did he approved. He let you unburduned yourself from this charge.
Of course, in the the tech it was completely unthinkable that the PC would be sent to ethics for telling an overt. That is the opposite of scientology.
But Miscavige altrered the tech, had some false issus written (like OT eligibility which could never have been written by LRH as contrary to any basic law of scientology like “never inspect before the fact”)
I knew a guy he cheated his wife many many years ago. In PT (around 1990) he was happy with his wife and they were receiving some auditing. On eligibility he gave his “out 2 D” withold (which he already gave certainly before on grade 2). After elig, he was sent to ethics to “handle” what showed up on the sec check. The ethics officer told him that he had to say to his wife his transgression (of 15 years before).He said it was not necessary, it was the past long gone.
Ethics show him “Case gain and honesty” and said he would have no wins on the OT levels if he didn’t tell his wife the transgression (you know convincingly with a little compassion).
He decided “to confront” and told the story to his wife. Man, she was sooo upset!
It changed her idea of her husband. She was deeply ARC broken. Almost wanted to divorce! They suddenly were both so miserable.
The ethics officer in Flag took her on interview. She was so sad that she said like anyone would say : “I’d rather die”… The ethics made a note to the CS that she was a potential “suicide case”!
They both were stamped : “suicidal case” for her and “out ethics” for him.
They were given an eligibility PGM. To some degree she had to redo most of the PTS SP bulletins and get OSA clearence to be accepted on auditing line. He had to do “integrity course” and of course M4 starrate on “Pain and sex”.
So, this WAS NOT SCIENTOLOGY. But a gross alteration of it.
With 30 years + of little Goebbels, people think that this kind of service is scientology and they want to destroy it. Even trained people start to hate the subject. But God, it’s a wrong target!
Thanks for the comm FG ,
That’s a very sad story about that couple ; so pointless and even suppressive. It could be said that “truth” for the sake of Truth , can also be destructive. This fixation on forced “honesty” is very misguided indeed. Honesty is not “put in” with force and threat ; it is only accomplished with understanding and tolerance.
Sometimes people misinterpret this subject of honesty to the degree that they are ONLY being “honest” for the sake of their OWN first dynamic , and not really for the other person. They want to “take their burden off” to feel “relieved” of some transgression they’ve commited so that they can then feel “honest”. What many are apparently unaware of , is that sometimes by being “honest” you are only creating a very bad effect on the other terminal , as he/she was not ready to confront it as in the example you brought up. So the actual result of “being honest” was the violation of the rule , “Do only those things that others can comfortably face”.
Sometimes “truth” can hurt as much as it can free. What is missing here is good judgement and sensible discernment. By all means , be honest with others, specially your love ones ; honesty is the road to salvation. But do it because it will actually HELP in the situation to bring about a better ideal scene, and not just for the sake of our own first dynamic to feel “relieved” of of some of your burdens while you create effects others can’t comfortably face. That’s just the wrong purpose for it , and it IS actually “dishonesty” and not honesty at all. How can one be honest by hurting the ones you love ?
ARC, PETER
I’m with you, Boggle. This is not how I know it. I’ve seen too much of what this Bridge has NOT done for people, myself and my own family. I’m in the company of a Class 6, OT 8. However, I’ve used my own observations and my own experiences to come to my conclusion.
Better you don’t evaluate for me, Peter/Thetaclear. You are not my authority. If you’re an auditor, practise the auditor’s code. Two shuns; evaluation and invalidation. Do you know where this comes from? I do. Let me know if you do? You’re not the only one who’s trained or learned.
Dear inspired,
I wouldn’t pretend to be your “Authority” or anybody else’s. However, you did pretended to be the “Authority” for thousands of people who are VERY happy with their results upon having gone of The Brige and not up your “Hidden Bridge”.
You critics have an apparent unlimited confront when uttering your unsupported faulty “arguments” , but totally collapse unpon being criticized yourselves ; how convenient of yours.
Stop Q&Aing with the subject and just go directly to ARGUMENTS Inspired : valid arguments not HE&R and broad generalizations aimed at pushing other’s anchor points in as you and dear Boggle have been attempting to do in this blog for a long time.
All you guys do is to bring broad unsupported generalities about Scn, and then when confronted with it, you just Q&A and deviate from the subject instead of honestly debating to prove your points which I would be very happy to discuss openly here. If your arguments are sound and logical, then I’ll just validate your views and even will learn from them.
How many auditing hrs have you delivered to others ? Let’s be honest here, how many ? What part of the “Hidden Bridge” have you done so far?
Those Qs are very important to establish how competent you are in discussing these subjects. I mean, you wouldn’t expect a first year Physics student to be discussing with a PhD how the QED theory fails to explain “Gravity”. That would be nonsense as the student has not even been exposed yet to all of the subject neither has competently tested it.
So just present your arguments supported by empirical data and let aside the self-defense mechanism of “you are evaluating and invalidating for me”. I am just too smart for that ; haven’t you already realized about that?
ARC PETER
I’ve been following this subject closely for the last decade, on and off for over 20 years.
I’ve seen and read everything from mark bunker and bob minton to ursula caberta to anonymous to ortega, rinder, rathbun, macgoo…..the whole nine yards and this is one of the best articles written Period.
on a related but subtext note: scientologist need to realize that being “reasonable” is a good thing and to be unreasonable is to actually be insane.
if you appreciate this article then you are being reasonable. that’s what being reasonable feels like.
this article could not have been written without the use of reasoning.
you can only begin to reason things out by first being reasonable.
the word “reasonable” has been co-opted and subverted by the church precisely to stop people from thinking.
You have a strong and valid point there. In the policy letter on suppressives, the word “reasonable” appears three times as a very key factor within the justice codes:
A Committee of Evidence may be called by any Convening Authority who wishes more concrete evidence of efforts to suppress Scientology or Scientologists but if such a Committee’s findings, passed on, establish beyond REASONABLE doubt Suppressive Acts, this Policy Letter applies and the person is fair game.
If evidences of disconnection are given or if the alleged Suppressive Person or Group is clearly and beyond REASONABLE doubt shown not to be guilty of Suppressive Acts or is shown clearly to have reformed, the Committee of Evidence findings and the Convening Authority must remove the label of Potential Trouble Source from the Scientologist and the label Suppressive Person or Group from the suspected person or group.
But should the former Potential Trouble Source’s state of case show no gain after REASONABLE time in processing, any executive of Division 4 (Training and Processing) may order a new Committee of Evidence in the matter and if it and its Convening Authority reverse the former findings, the labels are applied.
http://www.suppressiveperson.org/sp/archives/820
Here, a person is instructed to be “beyond reasonable”. In the first two. And to be reasonable on the third.
Aren’t people given reasons to be involved with Scientology? And then if they are involved because of those reasons, isn’t that being reasonable?
THIS, is from the tech dictionary:
REASON, 1. it’s a very simple device by which a person’s ability to estimate effort is measured. That’s his reason. (5203CM04B) 2 . effort plus intention is
reason. Reason has to include the thought plus the effort. Thought plus effort
is reason. (5203 CM06A) 3 . the ability to extrapolate new data from the
existing data. Reason is hand in glove with self-determinism. The rehabilitation
of a person’s self-determinism is the rehabilitation of his ability to reason.
(DAB, Vol. II, 1951-52, p. 70)
(By the way,if you need a tech dictionary:
http://e-meterstar.com/books.files/TECHDICT.PDF)
I asked myself, “How can a person choose the greatest good for the greatest number with out reasoning? Is it possible to be ethical with out reason? No, it is not (I reasoned).
On the other side,one is prompted to abandon their own reason in favor of policy. If you rely on your own reasoning, you are being “reasonable”. You are encouraged to be “unreasonable”.
I never wanted to be “unreasonable”. I never became “unreasonable”. And I can tell you that my “reasonableness” became an issue for a for a few people.
Frankly, it astonishes me that anyone ever, agreed to be unreasonable. Just made a conscious decision to be unreasonable. Why? Because it got Hubbard’s way? Seriously? But it happened. There are plenty of people who chose to stop reasoning for themselves, and decided to let Hubbard or their senior, reason for them. And this has not helped them in the long run.
It is your first duty to yourself, to incorporate information into your OWN reasonings, and use what helps YOU, and discard what does not help YOU.
I’m sorry, but if you can’t do that. You can not benefit in any relationship.
And Hubbard lays out why in his first definition.
So, some people say, well,Hubbard screwed me over with different ideas.
Well, where are are YOUR ideas? Why aren’t you using them? Why are you borrowing from someone else? If you are going to learn from someone else, some new or radical ideas, can’t you at least sort out what you want to take with you from what you find repelling?
I mean,come on. He was a man. What women would want to have his mind? How would his mind work for a female?
He sold ideas for a living. When you walk into a supermarket do you feel compelled to buy everything on the shelf?
He himself said to discard policies that are outdated or do not work and some people can not even do THAT!
Hubbard said,
Man’s worst difficulty is his inability to tell the important from the unimportant. “Every target is the same as every other target” is part of A=A=A.
It takes good sense to be able to survey an area and find out
1. What MUST be done.
2. What SHOULDN’T be done.
3. What is only desirable to be done.
4. What is trivial.
Who has good sense that can not reason?
This applies to learning as well. I could write it to say:
Man’s worst difficulty is his inability to tell the important from the unimportant. “Every particle of information is the same as every other particle of information” is part of A=A=A.
It takes good sense and the ability to reason to be able to survey an area and find out
1. What MUST be learned.
2. What SHOULDN’T be learned.
3. What is only desirable to be learned.
4. What is trivial.
First of all, the entire subject of Scientology falls into category 3. For a very minute percentage of Earth’s population. For the rest, it falls into category 4.
So a person who is only curious should be able to sort through his notes, wherever they are stored, in books, lectures whatever, and take what you think will you help you, within your own reasoning capabilities, and use that. Toss the rest out. Hubbard wanted organizations to do that, so why wouldn’t people? Whether it was popular or not to do so.
HCO PL 13 Mar 65 What Is Policy?:
“POLICY is a rule or procedure or a guidance which permits the BASIC
PURPOSE to succeed.”
“Following policy is a matter of grasping situations and knowing policy
well enough to apply the right policy to the right situation …
(How can you possibly do that with out reasoning)
“Ideas or procedures that were unsuccessful in assisting the basic
purpose of an individual, species, organism, organization, become
bad policy.”
“Periodic sweep-outs of antiquated and didactic laws (rather than general
concepts and sub-purposes) must be undertaken by a being,
organization, group or race or species.”
I have no idea why some people just can’t decide what of Hubbard’s ideas:
1. What MUST be learned.
2. What SHOULDN’T be learned.
3. What is only desirable to be learned.
4. What is trivial.
So many people get stuck on 1 or 2.
Truly,everything he had to sell was a thought. People should buy thoughts based upon desire. If some of his thoughts were trivial to me, that’s just the way it is.
His thoughts on reasonable and unreasonable, fall into things I thought shouldn’t be learned.
And why should I be sorry for counter intention? I don’t have bad intentions for others. So why would I suppress my intentions? It’s a wide open space for intention right? I prefer to remain true to my own intentions.
It is not my intention to live on a “Scientology only” planet. That was never my intention. Or even to live in a “Scientology only” community. Doesn’t that interfere with other people’s human rights?
I disagreed that one can’t be “half in and half out” of Scientology. Just like there are must haves and can’t haves, there are must be’s and can’t be’s. If running a can’t have on someone is suppressive, so is a can’t be. Or a can’t do.
The Church runs can’t have’s, can’t be’s, can’t do’s,left right and center. It is a suppressive group.
Does that mean the anti Q and A drills didn’t turn my life around 180 degrees? No. Does that mean I think auditing is bad? No.
You have a right to decide what of these ideas seem interesting to you. And that is your personal business.
You are an incredible wise and sensible individual , dear Oracle.
If more people had your reasoning powers , there would never be any fundamentalism and fanaticism at all. It is so refreshing and inspirational observing how individuals can rise so high in their capacity to expand on their dynamics.
Great post indeed, my friend.
ARC, PETER
Appreciated WhiteStar. Insightful point about reasonable and reason. And The Oracles comments on same.
In the Esto Tapes the old man talks about the problem of policy becoming jammed crosswise in your skull. It’s exactly your point. I don’t say this as true because he said it either. Substituting policy, doctrine, law for reason is unreasonable…….at least, or plain dumb.
It applies to hundreds of endeavors and is true for hundreds of business people, scholars, education specialists, scientists and just you and I as well. Whether he said it or not.
I remember a smart software programmer, extremely well accomplished in her field, commenting on the information in the data series. She was surprised it was a big deal, the various policies, because she felt she intuitively used the stuff every day just doing her job. She was a never-in and hadn’t done any study until she read a few of this series. She said she had built-in reason. I agreed. She was brilliant.
I loved her comments. But she also agreed that such info, codified as it is, makes it teachable to those who wish to learn more about the subject of reason.
Anyway, interesting subject.
I think I can state very clearly and articulately what makes Scientology Inc different from any other religion.
1) It has no conscience. NONE. It does not recognize when it commits atrocities and abuse. It has no feeling of regret, or shame, and never ever apologizes. It does occasionally BLAME a former staff member, now departed, as the SP that did such and such, but it has zero remorse for splitting up families, acting out on sadistic punishments of highly controlled behavior modification such as the RPF and RPF’s RPF. It does not care that it has caused families to declare bankruptcy by stealing every last dollar it can in extra mortgages for frantic “world emergencies” while it stockpiles money on other people’s foreclosures. This occurs on every continent. It has no conscience that it makes wild anonymous phone calls to Law Enforcement to “set up” its enemies, that it uses Intelligence in dark and devious ways, that it has an URGE to DESTROY its perceived enemies and “shudder them into silence” ~or So they think
2) While other Religions often try to make a person MORE aware of their CONSCIENCE, the “Church” of Scientology uses a whip to control, dominate, make wrong and harm its publics while masquerading as a Church. It pretends technology to handle sins and transgressions but actually monetizes and weaponizes this for political and intelligence purposes. The weapons of MASS SEDUCTION where the “Church” gets all the revenue and you end up enslaved as a
“Scientologist in good standing” who cannot think for yourself, cannot befriend who you want, cannot talk to or connect with family if the Church says you cannot and end up as a miserable mind controlled victim.
3) Scientology Inc is completely free of any internal restraints to do as it pleases if it is “the greatest good” for the Church’s survival. This is a strange advantage over others who do have a conscience. The “Church” lives to indoctrinate that if you think anything negative about the “Church” ~~ why ~~ it is YOU that are full of Black Propaganda, Enemy Lines, Critically and natter = YOU the thinker, must have CRIMES !
This no-conscience whatsoever on the outcomes they create trickles right down to NO REFUNDS of unused money they are holding on account. NO refunds of service and hours even when they greatly mess up that counseling which can cost as much as $800 to $1000 an hour. The new trick is to SP declare you when you ask for refund, and then say you are not eligible to do the Refund Request Routing Form (per policy) because you are already a Declared Suppressive Person !
In most large companies, entities, corporations, services, if the service given is very bad or negligible or even harmful, an entity with a CONSCIENCE would offer a refund, or a re-do of what what messed up. But not the “Church”. You pay in a new unit of time to REPAIR what the “CHURCH” messed up in the first place !
The “Church” of Scientology craves money and power over its flock (but above all money) pursuing political communication lines and opinion leaders but does not have a nagging conscience that normal people have which would prevent them from doing anything and everything to succeed even when it greatly harms others.
Scientology Inc considers itself unassailable, unimaginably globally successful.
Why not ?
It has no conscience to rein in its schemes. It believes it can do ANYTHING AT ALL ~~ and must survive through space and time above all else~~ it believes it has the Bridge to Total Freedom ~~it believes it is ABOVE the Law.
I am not casually making such statements I lived and breathed it for 40 years. I received draconian punishments you would not give an animal. I saw it, I lived it and I waltzed out of the insanity Their vengeance of “Fair Game* on me resulting in my son dying at 27 years old carefully manipulated by OSA to disconnect from me and thus unable to afford simple medical treatment that could have saved his life.
I believe the Church of Scientology to be a criminal entity incapable to self correction or any kind of self examination. It is the ultimate Ser Fac and is on a pathway of self destruction.
Precisely. And any scientology spin-off that continues without a conscience, or dispenses with it, will wind up fighting itself in the same corner after leaving a long and bloody trail of bodies in its wake.
Love and compassion might help scientology go further than it has.
When it comes to money, the public is always wrong!
Good points. So many books on sociopaths describe them as having no conscience. This is their defining characteristic.
RCS behaves as sociopaths do.
I am sorry about your loss Karen. That incident should never have happened. It greatly upset me everytime I hear it. So much insanity.
I validate you very much for all you’ve done for others in your very long track as a top auditor and protector of Human rights.
My best wishes to you dear.
ARC,
PETER
In most large companies, entities, corporations, services, etc the customer is ALWAYS right. And it is true. There is a rightness in a person’s right to buy. Even if they are buying Hubbard’s ideas. And that is all David Miscavige has to sell.
In the Church of Scientology, the customer is ALWAYS WRONG. Not only the customers,but the staff too, according to David Miscavige. So he kicks all of the staff at L.A. Org out onto the street and replaces them with Sea Org. Laughter!!
By the way, heard that is turning into quite a flap. The biggest flap ever!!!! P.A.C. is a ghost town. Not all of the 200 staff sent in are even still standing. They are dropping like flies.
I feel for those people. Can you imagine what they are going through?
I was on staff for almost a decade, so I have a strong sense of the insanity and terror that’s going on inside those walls right now. I wouldn’t wish that experience on my worst enemy.
It’s gems such as this that keep me checking and reading blogs such as this.
A superb article, reasoned but vibrant, informed and imaginative.
It accurately and helpfully presents the current world of scientology, and of scientology in the current world.
The quest for happiness, knowledge, freedom and enlightenment must never be abandoned, but it can only be attained on a grounding of genuine respect and lived tolerance, not the morass of arrogance, dogma and intolerance that the CoS is now mired in.
Articles such as this clarify and inspire. Bravo. Thank you.
I love your summation.
“The quest for happiness, knowledge, freedom and enlightenment must never be abandoned, but it can only be attained on a grounding of genuine respect and lived tolerance, not the morass of arrogance, dogma and intolerance that the CoS is now mired in.”
Well stated Oiram. Thanks.
You are welcome SC. And thank you.
Excellent article and well written.
PLEASE also read what Karen had to say – read it again.
she has not only written from the heart but she has actually
confronted the evil which lies beneath the Church!
Behind their promotion of Freedom is Control and Slavery!
There is another entire section of people creating their own groups and maintaining them as “secret societies”. Keeping it underground.
These are people that keep their interests, associates, friends and activities private. These people are unaccounted for in reports and statistics, but there are many out there. Many more than you would imagine.
I think people who explore radical ideas, on their own with out any government, in small groups, tend to survive.
When you take out the need to dominate and convert and tax people, you just have a special interest group left. Those people keep to themselves. And there are many of them. Really, why should your interests be pushed on others anyway? Invitations to the curious could be extended,but that could be as far as it goes. Dominating the community with outrageous real estate acquisitions to make your presence known and accepted? That screams “desperate”.
On top of that, you have a bit more public groups, such as the Nation of Islam. Seriously doubt those Sea Org staff are down in the streets slapping them around, or calling Louis Farakhan for stat reports. Slapping conditions on him or any one else.
Psychometric science is the future. At some point it will replace DNA and fingerprints. A person will be able to pass through a door and unlock it without a key, recognized by “aura”. This is a science that has enormous potential and possibilities.
Good points, TO! It is also undeniable, that the greater the aggression of a group, per se, the less intimidated they tend to be, with idle threats being levied at them! That is, unless one hits back with a wallop of devastating proportions. So play out the games of supremacy, of Homo the Sap, hey? 🙂
ML, Calvin.
The question is, how, with all this great tech for increasing awareness ,did Scientology – starting in the 1960s – become a devious and abusive mind-control cult?
Shouldn’t Scientologists, with their high level of awareness, have prevented that?
Good morning everyone. Nice to see so much positivity and great amounts of ARC, manifesting themselves to increase the tone and the comm on this great blog. That is, until the appearance of Boggle, replete with his gaggle of defenders, who show up on cue, where they collectively follow their spurious agenda. Simple obnosis will tell you all you need to know.
When a person does NOT respond accordingly, to numerous clear warnings, to desist from repeated violations of the moderation policy, I say it is pointless to allow them to continue to disrupt the ambiance that makes this such a pleasant blog to visit.
Be assured though, in real life, I show far less patience with such provocation. (bait–attack, bait-attack, bait-attack, etc, etc….) To me, it’s just simply an indicator of deeper underlying “psychological” problems, that the tech could address and handle, were one willing to simply “come clean.”
That, or show them the door!!
Who needs to focus only on blemishes, though? Fortunately, there are a whole bunch of fun loving, insightful ess-pees, renegades and rebels here, who know what the bigger game is all about, hey? 🙂
Boggle, you could ask the same question about Christianity, for example, and how the Crusades could ever have occurred when the Christian Scriptures give an entirely different message. The answer in a word – corruption. The same kind of thing happened to other religions too.
The challenge of how to spread a Big Spiritual Idea without an organization – or with an organization – hasn’t really been solved. I think that’s what the blog post is basically all about.
Scientology is system of psychology started in the 1950s. It is not comparable to Christianity.
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Is there corruption? Yes. What is the source of the corruption? That’s forbidden to say on this blog – at least at this time.
Boggle: “Scientology is system of psychology started in the 1950s.”
If that’s your true understanding of scientology, then you’ve not understood that it is fundamentally a spiritual philosophy and practice. Can I ask what courses or books you have studied?
Also, what is it that you would like to achieve on this blog (or elsewhere) as regards scientology? There are a number of people here who are willing to have a true discussion with you.
Perhaps the only complete way to answer that question Boggle is to walk that path for youself? Dont do the church version I would advise. Try one of the indie versions if you dare? If so you may or may not discover why there are considerable supporters of the tech out here. The only way to understand it is to fully immerse oneself in it. Otherwise its easy to look from without and say its all popycock.
Dont do a course or two and say there, I told you so, its a waste of time. Use it to help others. See what happens. You may just be thrilled no end. Or you have predecided that it wont work and hardly apply it. Point is its up to you to get dirty with the subject and test it out.
If you ever get the chance to deliver 100’s of hours of basic Dianetics auditing you should by then know if this subject is worth its metal. If it fails to ignite anything, chuck the whole lot into the trash.
Boogle, your question could just as well have been put to any follower of anything – like with the American Constitution, how could the people of america end up with what pretty much amounts to a police state and a government that acts as if it owns the Earth, with the right to kill as it pleases?
Most people just do what the people around them do and believe what others believe. We like to think of ourselves as invividual thinkers, but the ammount of stuff we take for granted or accepts without question or analysis is frightening.
There are those that have come to the conclusion that the human race was created as a slaverace to serve as labour once upon a time. We were intentionally getting blockages built into us so that we would not be too smart or pose a threat to our creators. Be that as it may, but it offers another explanation than the prison planet one and how this is a dumping ground for the dumbest, most criminal and the rebels thetans of a larger system.
“I remember a smart software programmer, extremely well accomplished in her field, commenting on the information in the data series. She was surprised it was a big deal, the various policies, because she felt she intuitively used the stuff every day just doing her job. She was a never-in and hadn’t done any study until she read a few of this series. She said she had built-in reason. I agreed. She was brilliant.”
I love this comment as it appears to reflect where I am right now.
I feel everything I need from scn I already use intuitively now. Do I need more? Do I need to listen to LRH lectures constantly repeating the same stuff? Do I care any more about studying the tech or what is happening in the Joburg Org, or is it just holding me back?
After last weekend’s get together I had my first (non-solo) session, in the Indie field, right here in Joburg, and it was probably the best auditing I’ve ever had. Thanks very much to those delivering it. I’ve also done some solo’ing (Ron’s Org style) and also found it superior to what’s inflicted on us in CoS, and makes more sense. Yet I still ask, so what? Just because it’s good doesn’t mean I want or need it. I think there comes a point where one has to acknowledge one has graduated. What kept me going (interest wise) on OT levels was the naive idea that I was doing something on the 4th dynamic. ‘Clearing the planet?” Yeah, I couldn’t clear my own lumbago. That interest factor is gone.
I continue to frequent this blog not to fight scn (because I really don’t think I care any more) but because there is open and very interesting conversation of the subject of scn which used to be a big part of my life, and still is to a lessening degree. Don’t get me wrong – I am VERY interested that the Indie field is there, because I believe in and apply the tech (OT levels excepted) and want some back up whenever my own intuitive application of it lets me down.
Nice perspective Woden. Some friends and I have noticed this broad spectrum of people who hold similar positions to yours.
Going into a subject like Scn, before you start anything, you already have eternity, a conscience, perception, reason and a sense of knowing. Mike Rinder makes this point well. The IAS claims to guarantee all of that……….with cash……
By practicing some form of spiritual insight, you can hone these innate qualities.
Many trained auditors attest to assisting many hundreds of people to do this using the tech. This is an excellent example of practicing spiritual insight to improve your abilities and sense of well being.
You seem to have reached a point of self-determinism, of enhanced awareness and comfort with who you are.
This sounds like a nice state to be in and LRH would applaud you, amongst others. Like Desmond Tutu or the Buddhist masters. Or Lobsang Rampah. 🙂
Here’s the punch line: Scientology makes a person *selectively* more aware, in spots, while, also, making the person *selectively* less aware, in spots.
.
The “less aware” part is done, mostly, covertly.
.
This is one reason why it’s so difficult to talk with Scientologists about Scientology without them becoming agitated, or putting there fingers in their ears and going, ‘na na na na na na na!”
.
The “less aware” spots, put in place by Scientology, are triggered, and it can be quite uncomfortable for the person.
Will somebody please give Boggle the details of some nasty anti Scientology blogs. Maybe he will move on and enjoy himself there. He fails to use logic. He fails to respond appropriately to posts concerning his comments.
One gets the feeling this person is only here to stir up dissention.
He throws some quip out there, and in response is asked to explain what he means using logic and understandable reasoning. The result is no response for a while and then another spattering of nonsense cluttering up my screen. There is no actual comm cycle there. Certainly no two way comm. We never get his actual point of view; only the occasional nonsensical utterance meant to derail every discussion thread.
We’ve tried, LMR – he seems to enjoy getting bashed about at BIC.
You just nailed , LosingMyReligion ; that’s exactly what he is doing explained in so little words.
Perhaps, “What hasn’t been acknowledged?” Would be a very suitable process.
ML, Peter
Boggle: “Here’s the punch line: Scientology makes a person *selectively* more aware, in spots, while, also, making the person *selectively* less aware, in spots.”
It doesn’t have to. That’s the whole point.
Boggle, please provide some sort of evidence or reference to back up your claim that, “Scientology makes a person….*selectively* less aware, in spots.”
How exactly does Scientology accomplish this? Is it done via application of the spiritual auditing techniques of Scientology, or is it accomplished through a person’s involvement with the sub-culture of the organization?
I’m just throwing those things out as possible lines of argument for you, as you seem to rarely provide anything but slander and ad hominem attacks on Scientology and Scientologists.
In parting, just let me say that I think the moderators of Back In Comm have been exceedingly patient with you. The readers here have gathered by now that you’re vehemently opposed to Scientology as a body of work, a spiritual practice, and as an organized religion. Do you truly have anything further to add, or are you simply going to repeat what you’ve said here time and time again?
Thank you Ronnie. There has been a reason for allowing Boggle on this thread. The demonstration here is that 97.5% of the BIC family see Boggle for what he is. The rest agree with him in trying to derail this blog. There is no reasoning with him. Regardless of what anyone says, whether good or not, he will oppose. This is his nature.
Nicely said Ronnie. He takes away potential comments of a far more interesting nature.
Hello brother Ronnie, nice succinct statement there. it’s also interesting to note that the topic of this Opening Post – “The Great Divide” is graphically illustrated by a huge gap (missing section) between two intact sections of an overhead motorway.
The article, well written by SC, goes some way to present various facts and hypotheses, as to how and why this (state) has come about. Those of us who have read fairly widely, on this unfortunate state of affairs, are free to agree, or disagree with the content, according to our viewpoint/s, and personal experiences/gains/losses. That is our inalienable right, of course.
The big question ten becomes — what to DO about “The Great DIVIDE?”
Well, Ronnie, at the bottom end of this post is a response by “FG”., (Feb. 15, at 10.32 a.m.) To my mind, anyway, he provides a refreshing and INCLUSIVE answer, by closing his reply with the words: “Once the basics of auditing are in, it’s up to anyone to do what is true for him (/her). We have to be (get) used to the multiplicity of viewpoint, and still call it scientology.”
A rather sweeping, unconditional solution. don’cha think, Ronnie?
— Calvin (re-extending his green tentacle in friendship!) 😉
Hey Calvin,
There wasn’t a reply button under your waving green tentacle, so I had to post my return wave here 🙂
As to solutions, I’ve seen some good ones on this thread. As per my personal experience, simple application of Scientology can do wonders to patch up people and groups. I’ve noticed in my own life that I most often get into trouble when I fail to apply the things I’ve learned in life (like the tech), or to take responsibility for those things I know.
I remember realizing one time, that I could never un-know any of the things I was learning in Scientology. It was actually a sort of horrifying moment for me, as I also realized that forevermore, I would be responsible for all this new knowledge. Crap! No more casual out-ethics, dammit!
So yeah, it’s important that we do those things we know will help others, and refrain from doing those things we know will cause harm. Pretty simple, really.
Do hush dear flock, for “The Wordsmith”, has responded. 🙂
Thank you for your reply Ronnie. It has been a while. I applaud you for your verbal capacity to appeal to both sides of a conflict. As you say, once you know, it becomes difficult to UN-know!!
Believe it or not, I really to pick up on “intention”, behind words, rather more than the words themselves. And you really do manage to pass with flying colors, from both angles.
I stand solidly with you with the point you made at MS2:”There is far more that binds us, than divides us”
And you’re spot on about simply falling back to the tech, to get out of trouble.
We really are exceptionally wealthy in terms of the vast scope of solutions, we have at our disposal. Yet it is surprising how quickly we forget that.
or DO we? hmmmm…. Sometimes I suspect there may be more of a tit-for-tat thing going on, Games conditions? Not-isness? Holier-than-thou? Service facs. Oh please, give it a break. We ALL have learned about ARC, KRC, Granting beingness, haven’t we? Seems we haven’t yet learned to grow up!
Silly games that adult play hey? 🙂
Cheers bro,
–Calvin
Hey Boggle, well done to create some interest it’s fun! I did the same. I went in a jew forum and wrote some antisemitic article. Well they didn’t find in funny at all! (called me a nazi!)
But it’s a pleasure and a vice (but so enjoyable) to bring contradiction to people on their “holly” stable datum.
Like making drawing of prophet Mahomet, but the answer has been with bullets! (those guys really don’t have sense of humour!)
But, relieving us from the yoke of Miscavige as made us tolerant and quite interested to be criticized. We are masochist like you, pleasure to be bashed and bashing people. it makes fun, and discard the “winning attitude” which can be quite boring. The sad point is that you don’t really developpe much argument for your viewpoint then repeating the same boring blabla.
So, basically you should work a bit more your writing to try to present something more convincing.
The undelying idea for the people on this blog (but they are are polite so they don’t say it) is that you are a bit dumb.
Scientology being an abusive mind control cult? It no more that than christianity is inquisition. You certainly could compare Miscavige and Borgia.
This scientology we hate is not scientology, but is an awful alter-is of it carefully done by this little evil reincarnated Goebbels and a crew of obedients robots.
There is a therapeutic aspect to tell the arbitray one has been subjected to, it is relieving pain. It’s called group engram, arbitray can be spotted, charge blow, things are straigntened out.
But, to be happy to say that Hubbard was an hypnotist is so false that i cannot understand that anyone who really practiced the subject can fall for such a crap.
That Hubbard wasn’t perfect, it’s obvious. But he was mostly true to his own purpose and did his best and is leaving us a philosophy and technique that cannot be thrown out like a scam. We surely have to go for “Miscavige total obliteration”, but the subject of scientology need to be rehabbed.
A nice, un-propitiative breath of fresh air, FG. So thank you for that. 🙂
I need to say this: There are some VERY effective groups out there!
Groups who do not resort to propitiation, or being politically correct, or feeling the need to accommodate those who are clear in their mindset of trying to unmock or disintegrate the chosen belief/s or path/s of others.
Recognizing their intent, it then becomes counter-productive to try to engage them with reason. Their minds are ‘set’ (literally!) “Bigot”, is the term used in the dictionary, which describes “a person who is intolerant of the religious beliefs of others.”
Among some really effective groups currently leading the way in an intrepid, (bold) no nonsense approach to Standard tech, training and Auditing delivery, are Dror Academy and the tech team of MS2.
So then the obvious next question becomes: “Okay, so where are we at, in terms of formation of just such an effective team of our own, right here in RSA? MS2 have just asked the same question of us, on their blog’s latest OP. (I hasten to add, that BIC Admin, replied with intent to advise on this asap. So thank you BIC) 🙂
Looking forward to MORE fresh air – (’cause it invigorates and sustains us!) 🙂
Racingtheblood: I totally agree that Dror is an incredible group. I had the pleasure of meeting Dani & Tami at the Indy/Sp event last weekend, and they are wonderful people indeed. Despite the fact that there were a wide diversity of Indies (including Ron’s Org) in attendance, Dani and Tami granted total beingness to everyone – whatever their viewpoint and no matter their Indy affiliation.
I cannot however say the same about MS2.
I was somewhat taken aback at the most recent article on MS2 headed “South Africa anyone?”. The article stated they had reaches for auditing in South Africa and that these people want “the LRH bridge”. (An earlier version of the same article made a Freudian slip of saying “they are NOT wanting the LRH bridge” – but this was later corrected).
The immediate outpoint I noted was this: Why was this article put out on a public forum in the first place? The heading alone set the tone of what was to come, and I cannot help feeling that this article was a snide bullbait and swipe at the Indy scene in South Africa and the BIC blog. Lana has been in contact with people in South Africa – she knows very well that Mark Shreffler has just been here and she has clearly been in comm with BIC before, so how come she didn’t address this issue privately with her South African comm lines? Why throw this out there for people to have a “BIC and SA bashing” party?
Even after BIC responded, (which comment interestingly was held back and only published much later) they continued to allow comments denigrating the Indy scene in South Africa and the BIC blog.
As far as I am aware, BIC has never made or allowed any comments against MS2 – in fact they even used one of Lana’s articles with her permission some time ago, and earlier on in this discussion thread the author of this article validated MS2. Furthermore, BIC has made it clear that they do not take a stand nor are they a mouthpiece for or against any “Indy” group. Their “no man’s land” policy is an admirable one as far as I am concerned.
This is clearly not the stance of MS2 who seem to have appointed themselves as the universal Qual Division of every Independent Scientology activity across the planet and they alone have the right to approve or disapprove of what is LRH Tech and what isn’t.
Imagine my reaction and disappointment when I came across an MS2 article in which they all had a jolly good time bashing BIC and Chris Shelton after BIC had posted those brilliant videos of Chris’ explaining HIS VIEWPOINT of what had gone wrong in the Church. Personally, I really enjoyed these videos, and I feel that Chris made a valuable contribution in terms of explaining the complex labyrinth of Corporate Scientology (or RCS as it’s commonly known). I don’t care that Chris no longer considers himself a Scientologist – does this make him less of a human being and therefore not worthy to communicate his viewpoint? I think not. That man gave up something like 37 years of his life for a cause he truly believed in, and he has EVERY right to speak his mind and more importantly be heard and acknowledged.
MS2 engaging in a bashing of BIC and Chris Shelton melee and further knocking BIC for having the nerve to give Chris airtime was, in my opinion, unacceptable and conduct unbecoming of people purporting to be “real” Scientologists. Reading further on their blog, I came across an article in which they positioned themselves and “the ONLY true Scientologists” on the planet. If that is the case, then granting beingness to others, embracing the ARC triangle, The Creed & Aims of Scientology should be their mantra. So how come they see fit to engage in disparaging and denigrating remarks about good people on their blog? I have read a number of their articles and comments and it is amazing to see the atmosphere of sanctimonious “we are right and others are wrong” attitude being communicated on that blog.
MS2 claims to apply “100% LRH”. Which part of LRH are they applying by publicly denigrating fellow Scn’s and other blogs which are trying to expose Church crimes and generally HELP? How come they skipped all the early steps of the ethics gradients and went straight onto “public statements made against……”. At the very least don’t you think they should have taken this issue up with the BIC admins privately? What part of the ARC tech were they applying by allowing a public lashing of BIC and Chris Shelton? What about the Two Rules for Happy Living? And more importantly, how abut the Creed which states “all men have inalienable rights to speak freely……..”.
MS2’s reaction to BIC giving Chris Shelton airtime and acknowledgement was indicative of the same type of knee-jerk reaction of the Church. Who exactly appointed or put MS2 in charge of qualling what is ok and not ok to discuss or publish on other blogs and who gave them the right to put their “seal of approval” on other Independent auditors and groups applying LRH Tech?
I think it’s very clear that BIC is NOT an anti-SCN and anti-LRH blog – and I appreciate that they try to give everyone the right to their own viewpoint (within reason of course).
But for some reason this has got up MS2’s nose and they have made no secret how they feel about the South African Indy field and the BIC blog. So who is granting who beingness here and who is truly applying “What is Greatness”?
For me, that answer is very clear.
Shelley : ” MS2âs reaction to BIC giving Chris Shelton airtime and acknowledgement was indicative of the same type of knee-jerk reaction of the Church. Who exactly appointed or put MS2 in charge of qualling what is ok and notok todiscuss orpublish on otherblogs and who gave them the right to put their âseal of approvalâ on other Independent auditors and groups applying LRH Tech?
I think itâs very clear that BIC is NOT an anti-SCN and anti-LRH blog â and I appreciate that they try to give everyone the right to their own viewpoint (within reason of course).
But for some reason this has got up MS2âs nose and they have made no secret how they feel about the South African Indy field and the BIC blog. So who is granting who beingness here and who is truly applying âWhat is Greatnessâ?
For me, that answer is very clear.”
Very well said , Shelley !!! You summed it all up splendidly.
Let truth be known.
I will say no more for the time being.
ARC, PETER
Well I’ll be dammed, Shelley! (And certainly will be after this!) 🙂
Your points gel with me completely.. Firstly, Dani & Tami are just about the most genuine, open people one could wish to meet, going by several vids I have watched featuring them. These people show a warmth in human interaction that attracts you to them. They show sincerity and a willing to remember their roots, and this translates into people who keep it real, and no need of arrogance and ‘holier than thou’ disposition. I really would love to meet them, personally, one day too! 🙂
As for MS2 I think you have covered your concerns and disagreements with them pretty thoroughly.
When Lana took up managing Steve Hall’s blog, she tried admirably to make a go of it. Made some blunders, decided to start her own, and became the victim of the very worst ‘fair game’ attack I have ever witnessed, since the mass exodus from the CO$. Never-the-less, she dusted herself off, and just got on with the job she’s currently busy with today.
Like most people, I suppose I’m most comfortable where I feel welcome. .(unlike a certain Boggled individual, who seems to have some perverse obsessive / compulsive fixation where he enjoys getting flagellated for his utterings.)
Thus the “like” factor enters into one’s interaction with others, ostensibly for the ARC exercised and enjoyed! To me, that includes the replies and feeling of fun and banter, as well as tackling the more dire issues, in a spirit of togetherness.
The stoney silence factor I began to experience, made it clear I was no longer welcome at MS2. That’s okay by me, since today, we are all free to associate with whom we choose. I still wish her well with her endeavors, never-the-less. as long as they continue to help people with the tech.
BUT, Shelley, they would do well to take heed of your criticisms of “appointing themselves as the only ones” Granting of beingness, and showing a respect for the clear mandate of your moderation policy, is about as middle of the road as one can get.
In short, Shelley, i really get you, so thanks. Chin up! 🙂
Best, Calvin.
Thanks Racingintheblood39.
To also react on the position of MS2. I like their essays always interesting and they have a very good vintage taste of old scientology before Miscavige. But when they take the position to tell who is a standard auditor or not, they take a position none invited them to take.
They become I would say a kind of “independant RTC”.
Reading between the lines, I would think that the “squirrels” (aside Miscavige) for them are most certainly Ron’s Org.
I read an article written in 1983 by Bill Robertson exposing Miscavige and Broeker. In the church we didn’t even know those guys existed at this time.
Robertson was the first to find out. What he wrote on some of his “admin briefing” is pure prophecy on how the church will evolve. He did the full eval when most of us were still good church members and giving their money to Miscavige.
Now technically it’s also true that Ron’s org diverge on some points that ex COS auditors would consider being unquestionable standard tech.
Like checking or not reads on grade questions.
And of course there is Excalibur versus Not’s, and mostly the valdity of Ron’s Org bridge.
This for someone who knows the tech, is an interesting exercice to make his own mind on what seems true to him.
For example there is tendency to evacuate Not’s as “no longer used” y people who practice Excal.
And some “standard LRH” auditor just curse Excal as completely squirrels.
Well when I found some Excal auditor and CS having not even read the Not’s series, and some “standard” finding that Excal was just pure imagination of Robertson I felt there is a lack of ability to even look before you judge. (anyway the tendency is to get rid of the OTIII cosmology which is very present in Ron’s org)
I read of course many time the Not’s serie and Bill’s briefing and could find very valid points on the differents approach.
The Not’s Serie being more a basic. I think the main point which oppose Excal is that Not’s call for short session which I think is correct. Excal wants to do a more thorough cleaning and call for longer session with more significance.
My take is that both Miscavige and Ron’s Org have lost the simplicity of “blow by inspection”. But I will not go further on technical matter.
But basically the problem with scientology is “standard tech”.
But for me standard tech is simply good comm cycle, auditor’s code in. What is simply natural and that a PC need and want to have case gains, like no comm cycle additives, Q&A etc…
But the quarrel on is it “source” or not is just an old thing.
In 1978 Hubbard was almost dead and it tooks Mayo to help him back to life and research Not’s with him. And they did it and the ink was not dried that Not’s was delivered to the public.
Later, Robertson having left the church, researched Excal.
I know many people who did Solo Not’s on the church and now doing Excal find it so much better and are winning.
I also know people who did Excal and above who are happy now to receive Not’s and find it so cool and easy to be winning.
Once the real basics of auditing are in, it’s up to anyone to do what is true for him.
We have to be used to the multiplicity of viewpoint, and still call it scientology.
Hey there FG, based on your comments is it safe to assume you have run excalibur and NOTs? Others Ive spoken to have likened it with the following analogy. In NOTs one removes the leaves off the tree. In excal one removes the branches, trunk and roots of the R6 bank. If one removes only the leaves so to speak, they tend to grow back. Hence guys in the cherch realising the shit they thought they handled reappeared. Also its been said NOTs was designed as a repair action. Mayo used it to heal LRH. Was it ever meant to be made into 4 separate OT levels? Excal is intended to bypass the church levels OT 4,5.6,7. However from what I understand if a person had a very bad drug history for instance, OT4 could be run. Once handled back to excal.
Having just started OT2 in Rons org I cant compare excal or NOTs perse, not having reached the level yet. Up until now, the wins have been incredible! Thats about as effervessant as Ille get for now. This is my gauge.
Another point Ille mention is this. Pc’s who are stuck in case beyond their current level are handled specifically using the tech of that advanced level untill that pc is disintangled from it. They then continue from their orginal point as per usual. I know of a number of us who had to do this. Ask any of them if it wasnt the right item. I reckon it saved my ass and theirs too!! So Ive had a taste and its something to behold. I sometimes wonder how anyone could move forward if you dont handle it first? Works similiar to being out-int. Handle this or else actually!
Lastly the MS2 blog. I still enjoy their articles. I dont comment any more because my feeling is their stance is too KSW for me. “For godsakes lets build a better bridge” may be lost on them. Thats ok. Its their right to adhere to what they feel is right of course. I wont stoop to name calling or throwing nuts at other squirrels either. I just wonder at what they are gonna do when they reach OT7 or 8 and there is nothing else they can do, no more levels. What then? Perhaps Bill Robertsons completed bridge may then be an interesting temptation to finally dispense with orthodoxy? Who knows? All I can say is that so far it is working for a lot of people. Rons org South Africa is growing exponentially. It grows by word of mouth and of course by results. That to me is the final judgement – results! Other groups in the indie field are also having much success. I wish my brothers all the success in the world. Lets unite in our efforts despite any petty differences please! MS2 can we still be friends?
Those are excellent views indeed, FC. And VERY professionally evaluated, I may add.
“Sandard Tech” is not necessarily LRH’s Tech ; it is “That which works” , and invariably so in any circunstances as it explain even its exceptions and their remedies as well.
ARC, Peter
FG, thank you for all your thoughts too. I’m actually amazed at the extent to which our viewpoints align! That can’t be too shabby for teamwork, hey? 😉
I see what you are saying about MS2 Shelley.
I guess they have the right to invite those into their group based upon their terms. The article that all these comments follow, suggests they may do this, but that the consequence of this is that they will remain a niche group, with small membership and limited influence, just as the Church is a niche movement.
This is not necessarily good or bad. They will service a market that is attracted to their group ideals.
If they lay claim to being the only true source group, some will be repelled by this and others attracted.
All groups using the tech I belive are useful to the degree they provide a service to people that believe they are gaining by that service, without the points referred to by WhiteStar, control, force, manipulation.
This is in response to Shelley about what she says about MS2. Unfortunately there are not enough :”levels” of reply available on the blog for ne to reply directly to Shelley’s comments.
Thanks for your comments on MS2. I was not aware of these attitudes of the people at MS2. I don’t really spend m uch time reading their site. But I have been a member. Until now.
I trust you Shelley. We have had comm outside of this blog which has been been very up-tone and very real.
So as of now I am leaving MS2.
Perhaps it may occur, to others, as it has to me several times, to ask the question; “what might scientology look like in say, 100 years time?”
One might speculate, for example, the greater use of nano-sensors, which might give better ‘reads’ than the best of current (and future ) meters?
Possibly more accurate sensing devices to accurately facilitate duplication of all 3 factors – Affinity, Reality, and Communication, when auditing items in a session with a pc. It would surely be pointless to argue against the efficacy of such developments, if they could help speed up the EP goal/s ie understanding/cog/vgi’s big win etc.
We already have the actuality of delicate micro-surgery being performed on a patient, in a super-tech OR, by a fully enabled laser robot, while directed and controlled remotely by a team of specialist surgeons, interfaced via their camera fed control panel and Monitor screen – perhaps some 10,000 kms away in a different country.
Those basic fundamentals (ARC, KRC, ARCx’s, O/W’s, GPM’s, Charge, BP charge, etc, etc) may take on a different value, (alter in importance), in the light of future research, findings & developments, which may enhance the gains achieved, primarily through a faster achievement of that one indispensable component of the Comm formula – Duplication!!
D-U-P-L-I C-A-T-I-O-N — as vital to each and every one of us , in every aspect of our lives — as the air we breathe.
2c. worth of speculation for 100 years time …. what’s yours?
whatever else “philosophy” is, it is a tool, it is something that can be used to effect reality.
we need only look at the world at large to see it’s use and results.
It has a power that does translate into physical reality and so it will always be used, it will never go away.
It doesn’t matter what it’s called or what it’s core beliefs are. you can believe in the spaghetti monster and if that belief has an influence in your life then it is effecting reality through the choices you make in life.
Since they can effect reality, they are a very powerful tool. we all know the power of cults. Jim Jones is but one example of the power a “philosophy” can have, Heaven’s Gate another.
It can also do the opposite and bring us an Albert Schweitzer
Hence “Philosophies” will always be developed, put forward and asserted.
They will always be sought after, either from
1) The desire for self improvement, seeking to understand nature.
Or from
2) The desire to exploit, control, manipulate or lord over other people.
In turn people will always be exposed to them, some will accept them and conduct their lives according to them, for one reason or another.
That is an inevitable reality that has to be accepted.
If you stamp out every existing religion you will end up with new religions.
Trying to stamp out all religion and philosophy would be like playing whack a mole, it’s futile.
With that understanding, the issue then becomes, which religions/philosophies belong to group 1 and which belong to group 2.
Group 1 is fine no matter how ridiculous the beliefs are to the average person. it doesn’t matter.
If you are a believer in one or none of all the religions/cults/philosophies there are, then every one or other is ridiculous to you.
Do you really want to go stamp all those out? It’s not even practical and that’s why you’re not concerned with them. Nobody is out there protesting the Jedi knights, no one feels those people need to be talked out of what they believe. And all civic minded people including atheists would consider it fascist to suppress their right to their beliefs, even when done through un-welcomed debate.
And that is because they aren’t in group 2(at least that I know of).
Group 2s are the problem. All anybody can do and ask for is to move group 2s into group 1.
Either by reform by their own adherents or by compulsion from an external force.
If the belief system wither and dies in the process then so be it. If it survives then as a group 1 there is no problem, they are afforded the same respect and protection as the Jedi Knights.
If scientology can make that transition then critics will just go away. You can tell by how many people protest the Dror Center or how many blogs critical of indies there are. so far I don’t see any ex-indies blogging about how they got ripped off.
If independent sects of scientology fall back into group 2, they will attract critics.
when Falun Gong was being cracked down on by China, we in the west saw that as oppression and violations of human rights. A point of pride in the west is freedom of religion. In most countries it is the law. Which means the beliefs themselves are irrelevant as long as they are within the law.
Buddhism is regarded as perhaps the most peaceful religion, yet young men grow up and set themselves on fire for those beliefs. Should they have been talked out of it? Who’s to say.
If person A talks a scientologist out of being a scientologist, then the ex becomes a born again Christian, so person A should now talk them out of that? and then they become a Jew and have to get talked out of that…or worse, you talk someone out of scientology and then they go jump off a bridge, then what? It’s possible.
When does it become time for person A to stop telling this person what to be or think? When does person A just leave them alone to figure things out for themselves? When they aren’t hurting anyone else, that’s when. When that is met, then person A MUST stop. At that point they cannot go further trying to prove how stupid the beliefs are. It’s not their right, it’s not practical and it is dangerous and destabilizing.
So long as a person isn’t exploiting, controlling, manipulating or lording over another, then their beliefs are their own and it’s nobody’s business to tell them otherwise.
+10 WhiteStar
BIC Admin announcement:
We have moderated a number of comments and responses to and from Pedrofcuk, Discoqueen and Boggle. We see no point in continuing to provide a platform to those who arrive at BIC in order to derail the discussion thread with off-topic comments and content that is in clear violation of our moderation policy. We have been more than lenient up to now, but we are drawing the line here.
To those of you who have engaged with enthusiasm, interest, and on-topic contribution, thank you. Feel free to continue doing so.
Regards,
BIC Admin
Way to go, BIC! Enough is enough, ne? 🙂
There is a wide difference between exchanging ideas and personal attacking. Between the curious and the mind police. Between the interested and the prosecutors. You have done a good job keeping it upbeat and civilized. Thank you again for bridging the curious with the curious.
•*´¨`*•.¸¸.•*´¨`*•.¸¸.•*´¨`*•.¸¸.•*´¨`*•.¸¸.•
::: (_( …*…*…*…*…*…*…*…*…::::::::::::::
*: (=’ :’) :: Starry starry night.. :::::::::::::::::::::
•.. (,(”)(”)¤…*…*…*…*…*…*…*…*…:::::::::::
¸.•*´¨`*•.¸¸.•*´¨`*•.¸¸.•*´¨`*•.¸¸.•*´¨`*•.¸
Starry starry night sung by Curious George.
Much appreciated, BIC Admin.
As sentient, reasoning beings, I think we all can perceive when someone’s comments in the aggregate, amount to little more than religious bigotry.
It’s only that, that I object to in these discussions about Scientology.
I personally grant every person the right to draw their own conclusions about any religion, based upon their own observations and direct experiences. That includes anyone’s conclusions about Scientology.
It’s a matter of personal integrity to stand with what’s real for you. At the same time, it’s important to recognize that your truth may not be true for someone else. That person’s observations and experience may be at wide variance to yours – on the same subject matter. In that case, it’s right and proper to allow that person their reality, and not attempt to overpower them with yours.
Just as it would be beyond the pale to step into a Taoist religion forum and begin trashing those people’s firmly held beliefs, so is it an act of spiritual terrorism to do so here.
Well said Ronnie. If we could stop making less of other people and how they choose to spend their lives. You don’t go onto the Catholic forums or Christian or Muslim forums to trash them. Why trash Ron’s Org people or Freezoners or Independents? They are good people. Good friends. They are spouses, mothers, fathers, friends, sons and daughters. They help in their community. Humanity first. The art of being kind to your fellow man.
I am grateful for these ideas of Hubbard’s. Even the ones I think are not so good. It is good to think of why an idea is not good. It is healthy. That in itself is a valuable process.
Scientology is an endangered body of work. And Scientologists are an endangered species. They have a very tough time of it, very tough. They get whacked about in the Orgs and set up for losses, come out here and get it from the other side.
The ones that keep it going and manage to keep the porch light on, on the ones that can remove policies that led them into danger zones to begin with. They shape shift. That is survival.
I don’t care what they call themselves. Many do not even regard them selves as Scientologists. Because that Identity has been under constant attack, and the brunt of it, from other Scientologists.
If we can all just reach out and give anyone a hand up that is just interested in learning and knowing and helping himself and someone else, in whatever way we can without heavy conditions and penalties, someday, someway, people might come to find that exploring these ideas can be a pleasure. Maybe the ideas will get passed around. I am happy for anyone who is looking at these ideas and thinking about them. Using any one of them that is helpful.
I am doing P.R. work for the Mormon Church right now. I am so grateful to be their company. They have many useful traditions and advices, I am just amazed. I wouldn’t want these people to be anything more than they already are. They are just great people. I see no reason why they should be harmed attacked or suppressed.
Neither anybody else that is just how here working and living and doing to see a better day and leave a better world behind than the one they came into.
That is all I really expect of another person. Can you just leave the world in a better place than you found it? That should be enough to ask of any person.
Before you go out here attacking people for whatever they are doing on their own dime, ask yourself if that person is making the world a BETTER PLACE. Even if they are doing in a different way than you.
That is all we really have the right to ask of our fellow man.
People that are making their lives better, and this world a better place, are NOT a liability on this Earth.
To suggest they are is injustice.
Global conditions. Without saving the rain forest, we were looking at this planet only being able to sustain a population of one billion by the year 2999.
Vivienne Westwood has saved hundreds of thousands of acres of rainforest through her global awareness work.
Meanwhile we have Joe Blow on the left “saving the planet” by either making it their job to make nothing out of every idea Hubbard ever made a note of, or a counter part making nothing out of everyone who isn’t worshipping every idea Hubbard ever made a note of.
On a dying planet that other people are saving!!!!
It’s just madness!!!!!!
I mean to say, this attitude of, “If you are not in the same industry as me, you do not matter and your opinion does not count”, isn’t helping anyone’s cause.
True words Ronnie.
I appreciate your stance on BIC at the MS2 blog. Your call for peace and not war and tolerance within the context of what the moderator of the site is choosing to do.
Thanks.
There are many, many deeply experienced and interested Scns who follow BIC.
They skip over the comments they do nt like. As you said at MS 2 you are thick-skinned enough to venture here. I agree. We are not timid and hapless. We can handle it.
I want to join in your validation of Ronnie , SC.
I read his post at MS2 ; it was excellent indeed. A real testimony of great spiritual maturity and awareness. I am glad that he did. It is individuals like Ronnie that set the tone for sensible handlings of divergences. Gee, he even made me change my mind and attitude. So, thanks a lot Ronnie!!!
ARC, PETER
Thank you SC and TO for your very kind and peaceful comments.
My feeling is that we Scientologists have had quite enough of being ravaged from without and within. It’s time for peace among all factions. It’s a time for healing, as there are far too many walking wounded among us. Too many have been become shell shocked and blown apart by all of the internecine warfare that’s gone on in the last several years.
Enough. Let us please exercise the simple basics so many of us learned so long ago. As I commented on the MS2 blog, there is so much more that binds us, than divides us.
Peace.
Thank you BIC Admin! 🙂
To Racing : yes you’re right. But, I’m in Europe.
To Sheeple : I ‘m happy to hear that Ron’s Org Africa expand. You don’t have to go to RO Switzerland or Germany to do your OT levels? I did Solo Not’s in the church and also New OT VIII. I have been doing Excal but I didn’t finish it. I have a long practice of Solo Not’s. I still have to evaluate both subjects. But if you are on the bridge at Ron’s Org just continue, they have an excellent stat of happy customers.
It’s great to have this connection, FG! Long may it continue! 🙂
Milestonetwo notice on their blog
Lana M. says:
February 15, 2015 at 11:17 pm
Notice to all persons that comment on MS 2 blog, a nattery negative comment about MS 2 has been placed on BIC in the last few hours, inviting debate and more negative comments.
Please do NOT sink into a low toned games condition with that individual or the person who is in her ear. Drop it. Not feeding the entheta is the best solution. It is not the MS 2 game.
Do not engage on BIC or on this platform. Any comments that engage in a games condition will be deleted from this thread.
Reply
Thank you for the alert SC.
Yes SC , thanks a lot.
At this point, after having been witness of that post at MS2, I would very much want to tell my own story with MS2 and how it was that I ended up being blacklisted and dead-filed by them. If you give me your go-ahead, dear BIC, I’ll be very happy to enlighten our posters with a story that will thouroughly explain all of this with hard evidence and complete unbiased facts.
So I am ready when you are.
ARC, PETER
Yes BIC, and TWO open communications, that I sent to MS2, late yesterday, using ARC, were deleted, presumably seen a “games condition.”
The irony in all this, is Lana, just a few days ago, saw fit to post an article on South Africa (a reaching?), and then when some comm is made on this BIC blog, (“nattering”), decides to take offence, and issues the above order to her supporters. (“cut comm!”)
It may suit MS2, (natter = enemies), — Huh?? — But seems quite childish and inappropriate to me. Oh well, different strokes….. i suppose.
The latest news on the MS2 blog is sad. Lana you could have handled it way better you know. Before any war begins there is a censorship or blackout of communications! You just did that by saying what you did. Instead you couldve been on the back channel pouring oil over troubled waters and bridging the great divide. Instead you might as well have volleyed flaming arrows into the combustive oil- boom, we now have an inferno of disagreement!
Well done OSA! You have succeeded in widening the great divide! Who are these people who were looking for the “real LRH bridge” in SA? Genuine reach? Or OSA trolls looking to ferment war? Do you really know? You may have fallen for the oldest trick in the book! Divide and conquor 101. Again well done OSA.
Another possibility as I see is squabbling terminals behind the scenes. Disagreements lead to scisms and snow balls into well this! Get over it please. Park the egos, the rightnesses and they are wrongnesses somewhere else please! Have your disagreements sure, use comm to handle it or your KRC is out. Get it back in fast or all welle have is unecessary war, for what?
There is no authority over mans relentless search for truth and spiritual freedom. As soon as some being or entity starts saying they are the way and only light out of the dark tunnel alarm bells should be ringing! Instead what should be said is here, we have a possible route out, come see for yourself and decide, no pressure! The church became a despotic cult because it failed to ensure people did what they did self determinedly! It was all enforce, enforce, enforce! Its a slippery slope. Dont fall into that like the church did Lana!
We dont have to be enemies. Extend the olive branch, show us what is greatness. KSW1 is flawed. The ole man believed good judgement is superior than out right fundamentalist adherence to policy! He expected us to build a better bridge and take ownership of our freedom. We are doing so now, we are ready!
Now Sheeplebane, THAT was a good example of greatness, old chap (pat, pat!) “Seriously” — a good dose of ‘balance’ showing there,– if you don’t mind me saying so? 🙂
Why not just get to the point and tell them that some people in South Africa want to do the Ron’s Orgs OT 8 ‘Excalibur’ level and, maybe, other Ron’s Orgs OT levels, and that MS2 and BIC will have to agree to disagree about Ron’s Orgs?
It appears as though those spots of doctrinally created Scientological UN-LOOKING are bubbling up again.
Brilliant technology, duplicated and competently applied with understanding in a loving, safe and nurturing environment. This sums up my experience with RON’s Org.
I’ve been around the Church for over 35 years – staff, public, trained and processed up to and including NOTS. Over 20 years ago everything just came to a halt for me case-wise. I had so many questions and unresolved issues which just did not get answered or handled despite hours and hours of review and repeated questions to the various C/Ses. I basically withdrew from the church then.
Last June, I got on RON’s Org lines and have been blown away ever since by the help and the fact all of my questions have been answered. It’s all there. All of what I had my attention on was resolved within a few days. I am now deep into Excalibur and having wins beyond my expectations. Literally, resolving unhandled conditions which have stumped me and every C/S and Auditor I’ve ever had. It has been exactly what I have been looking for. I can’t say enough about it.
At first, my impression of RON’s Org was a cheap, squirrel version of Scientology for the poor Russians. Mix in just about every slur you can imagine about Captain Bill – the internet is great for this – and I was not going to have anything to do with it.
Digging further, it was far more than I had expected.
I have to admit there are things one might come across which can sound pretty nutty. Truly nutty:-) But that is the same with the Church. OT 3 materials, out of context, sound absolutely crazy and this is where the Church blew it, in my estimation, regarding upper levels. All they have to say is “yes, out of context, it does sound quite nuts but at the right time and within the correct context it takes on a whole different meaning”.
So to the haters and nayers, yeah, some of what CBR says sounds absolutely off the wall nuts……just loopy:-) Out of the context, it is meant for.
But, within the correct context it takes on a different flavor. And from what I have personally done and experienced, all that which I’ve applied has come through as accurate and true. The wins have been astounding!
All I can say, for all of the failed OT5s and incomplete OT7s out there – or anyone for that matter, there may be a few answers for you, which can shed some dramatic light onto your woes.
I’ve never done any CBR myself but have studied Excalibur in detail, and all I can say is that at least for me , it explains quite a few hitherto unexplained case phenomena that LRH’s NOTs does not explain. There are apparently some “hidden influences” keeping us down in spite of supposedly having handled the NOTs case. I’ve seen NOTs (Solo-Nots) completions under great responsible C/Ses that still dramatize illnesses and body somatics (cancer, arthritis, etc) , in spite of corrections lists to make sure that any BPC had been taken up and handled. Many of these cases were pre-DM reign , so attributing the “failed case” condition to “altered Tech” from RTC does not aplies here.
The KSW adherents (I was wrong in calling them “fundamentalists” , but on that at another coming post) will have to confront at some point that they will meet a dead-end very soon. Many of them are either Solo-NOTs completion or are at it right now. NEW OT VIII, even if it is actually LRH, which I am not so sure it is ; is not a complete level. NEW OT VIIIs got to be honest with others and tell them that many of them were VERY surprised when they first opened that NEW OT VIII course pack after doing theory part A , and found out what the processes were all about. You know how many of you looked around in surprise at others thinking, “Is that it ?” , “Is that all of it ?”.
I tried to alert others of that at MS2 some months ago and they had a field day with me. They thought I was just “fishing” for delivery terminals , and that I was probably an “OSA troll”. Well, if I were, then I would be the smartest “OSA operative” that has ever been active in the Field. But on the other hand , perhaps I was insistent enough on the subject to raise suspicions ; I can be really insistent sometimes. So, I’ve forgot about that.
Back to the OT VIII subject , these OTs know very well that the advertized product , “Handling the Reasons for Ammesia on the whole track” , IS NOT a product whasoever in any way, shape or form , of “NEW OT VIII”. It just isn’t , and they know this very well. That’s why I am totally against the faulty and misguided idea of “confidentiality”. Because it prevents an unbiased and competent analysis of the workability or lack thereof of any confidential upper level.
For those KSW adherents that has interpreted that advertized product as meaning the somehow now “we are ready to recover whole track recall at other levels, because we have now handled the reasons that would prevent it with NEW OT VIII” , let me disabuse you of that faulty analysis.
Any Original class VIII who has listened to the original “Class VIII lectures” un-edited should know that LRH mentioned in one of them about OT VIII actually ACHIEVING whole track recall and not just “handling the reasons why one doesn’t has it” , which can be badly interpreted. I’ll post the exact quote tomorrow if someone is curious enough. Anyone ?
NEW OT VIII is actually a VERY short step ; original OT VIII , LRH’s OT VIII, was not. LRH called it “The last Wall Of Fire” on a VERY controvertial HCOB which the majority considers “un-authentic” due to a very clever strategy from the Church when DM found himself at a crossroad. Had he claimed it to be LRH’s , he would’ve lost his “Power” position and his money making machine guaranteed. What others don’t seem to understand , is that such an specific HCOB was totally incompatible with DM assuming “Power”. That’s why he denied its authenticity. I might only be conjeturing here according to some, but there are many pieces of the puzzle that points to that according to my research.
So NEW OT VIII is a dead-end, and at the most , a very much incomplete “OT” level (which it actually is NOT).
So what does this leaves the KSW adherents with ? They certainly want to continue down the road to “Total Freedom” , and DM is not going to release any “New” OT levels any time soon. And even if he did , they will probably be random pieces of Original OT levels anyway. So that leaves them with what ? Route 1 processes ? SOP-8C or SOP-O ? Excalibur ?
The point is that they might need to start looking at RESEARCH as an alternative whether they want it or not. Otherwise they’ll find themselves at a dead-end ; a very sad state of affairs once one has already set one’s foot on the “Road to Truth”. There is no turning back, I am afraid.
Scientology might be workable enough (not perfect by a long ways) at the 0-V level ; the Grades and perhaps a DNs Clear (which is actually not an actual Clear per DMSMH description). But it is VERY incomplete at its upper levels ; very. An honest , unbiased and totally objective research and pilot proyect is needed on that area. There is a final “Wall Of Fire” that needs to be found or re-disvovered. One that can effectively handle the body from being a very effective “Theta trap”. As long as this body remains being such a trap, which NOTs doesn’t handled at all no matter its EP, we’ll never fully handle weird, unexpalined case manisfestations, and loss of abilities regained such as “Stable Exteriorization” and “Freedom From Illness” which NOTs doesn’t handle no matter what it says in the NOTs bulletins. I mean, it should be plain evident by now that it doesn’t.
So what exactly are we going to do , KSW supporters ? I am all ears ?
ARC, PETER
Speaking from experience on NOTS, Solo NOTS and Excal, I would add one observation to the well stated comments above – the most obvious proof is sometimes too obvious to be noted as the proof.
The fact that so many so-called “OTs” are still ‘in’ the church and loyal to Miscavige and his tyrannical, implanting style regime, is proof of the limitations and even liability of the NOTS band as delivered by the church and major segments of the field.
If NOTS truly delivered or produced OT’s, those OT’s would see Miscavige’ shenanigans for what they are – age-old implanting techniques.
The fact they do not see this is proof they have not achieved a true OT result.
Excalibur handles this “PTSness” terminatedly.
This is why I made all the materials available for anyone legitimately set up and ready for the level via scientolipedia.org.
http://scientolipedia.org/info/Having_the_Correct_Technology#CBR-RO-EXCAL
It is a great honor to have you here Dave !
And thanks so much for posting the link and the materials at your very informative Website.
ARC, PETER
Thanks for your post. Very insightful. Yes, I am interested in what the quote is.
Thanks Focus, most kind. Here is the direct quote. The not in brackets is mine to keep the “confidentiality” rule in as manners to this blog’s policies , not that I believe even for a minute in this misguided idea that has only obstructed Scn and its progress in research. Here is : “Now a guy at clear, hefeels wonderful. Why does he key in? He’s still got (what you handle at NOTs),he’s still got this and that. So, you take it apart, take it apart, take itapart, take it apart. And, just today in research I was punching around to findout exactly how you restore total recall on the total track, and so forth,which is one of the functions of 8. And found out how you did it, on somebodywho didn’t know how to do it. Somebody who didn’t have it” “What did you have for breakfast in 1325 B.C.?” Wholetrack recall, whole track recall. The same reality level as you recall thislifetime. Well, opened the door to that one.” (From 6810C08 Class VIIITAPE 12 “MORE ON BASICS”, pag 22 of the transcript , parr. 2 and 3.) So there you have it : directly from LRH. Now , raise your hands please , all the OT VIIIs that have this “whole track recall” ability. You don’t need to tell any details if you don’t want to ; just inform that you do have it. Any volunteer ?I”ll make it even easier for you ; how many of you have perfect recall of just your last 10 lifetimes ? Original OT VIII was also suppose to give you the ability to “permeate MEST” , did you know that ? It is right there in the class VIII lectures too.
I mean no invalidation at all for all those VIIIs that I am sure experienced great wins with the level ; but let’s be honest here , OT VIII’s “EP” is almost an insult after all the work you did at your solo-NOTs. Still believe that NEW OT VIII is a complete level , and even LRH’s ?
ARC ,Peter
Peter, You speak of moving out of fixed conditions. This is the ability gained at grade lV. Anyone that has been around the Scientology community for any length of time, knows that some people do the grades, and they manifest new abilities. Some people do the grades, and they do not. I don’t know why this is.
Hate, for sure is a fixed condition. Being in a perpetual arcX, is a fixed condition.
Not being able to reinvent yourself, is a fixed condition. Some people are doing and saying and thinking and being the same thing they were twenty years ago. Fixed conditions.
I do not know why there are so many people involved with Scientology, that can not see the subject and the handling of it, is up to need of change, yet they can not do it. This is a fixed condition.
But I do not judge the auditing by what others have made of it. I do not judge Scientology by what others have made of it. I do not discount my life because others discount theirs.
I think you are right to see progress needs to occur. Otherwise you get what you see at the Flag Land Base. Recycling OT’s at the bottom of the bridge. GAOT that cancels certs every few years so people have to start over.
I don’t think a person needs group agreement anymore, to explore the possibilities within the framework of Hubbard’s ideas. That in itself, is a fixed condtition. I certainly don’t need to tax or govern the people over at Ron’s Org.
Or in any other Org. They are not using up my resources.
I have spent a lot of time, contributed it as a volunteer, to support people that are building bridges, not walls.
In my efforts to not be rude, I respond to even personal attacks. People use this method to dominate.
At the end of the day, and this is pretty much the end of my day in trying to help people be kinder to one another, hate and opposition I have come to see as a distraction. It is a fixed condition for most people that conversation will not handle. There is purpose behind it. That purpose will move through time. Whether it is about Scientology or something else, people want to fight, people want to protest, people want to dominate. Scientology is just the tent they went in, to forward a purpose.
If the Scientology tent folds, they will find another tent. If they have a purpose to hate, exclude, dominate, harm, attack, suppress…..it will manifest in the next tent. Under a new banner.
I think it is great that you want to continue exploring and researching, with or without a license or applause from someone else. It’s your life. Not to worry about haters. It’s a purpose.
Found a very funny quote this morning:
“Ignore the haters. You’re not the Jackass Whisperer.” –Scott Stratten
Hope this helps others as it has helped me.
Hi Oracle , Thanks for your comm. Yes , I’ve also perceived that general difficult with the Grade IV EP ,specially in all its flows.
It is my opinion that many PCs , once they handle their major “service Fac” (the core one , LRH calls it) , they are so blown out , and their life is so different w/out their previous fixation to this incredible limiting item , that of course they attest to the flows. They are usually just loving everybody being so keyed-out. In that release state you can say just about anything to them w/out getting a bad reaction from them. Life is beautiful indeed. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that they have all the 4s flow fully in.
Here is Grade IV Flow 1 “EP” : “Free from and able to tolerate others’ fixed ideas, justifications and make-guilty of self. Free of need to respond in a like manner.” Are we really being honest here if we say that with the conflicts that exist in the Field , where you have so many people being very intolerant and even hostile to divergent viewpoints (including me), that this Flow 1 is even closely IN ?
I doubt it very much. Gee , I have concentrated in getting this point in since VERY long ago and still fall so short myself. Of course , you are not trying to make an OT either out of Grade IV. But the manifestations abound so much in Scientologists regarding this ability being out , that there is no denying that something is really missing here : something just doesn’t add up.
What about Grade IV’s Flow 2 EP ? Here it is : “Moving out of fixed conditions into ability to do new things. Ability to face life without need to justify own actions or defend self from others. Loss of make-guilty mechanisms and demand for sympathy. Can be right or wrong.” There were so many of us in Scn fixed in space , fixed in unwanted conditions , unable to move beyond Scn ; that “freedom from fixation” wasn’t a reality at all. NO , there is something definitively very wrong here and please ; don’t you come now parroting “KSW #1” and “Standard Tech and the failed case” you KSW supporters , cause that is a wrong Why as regards to this. I think that the very reason why a PC is doing Grade IV (to handle his “Service Facs”) , is the same reason that obscure his incompleteness. Remember that an E-meter only reads on what is real for the individual , or on what he can potentially and immediately become aware of. So if he has NO reality whatsoever that he still has a lot of fixed ideas with which he makes others wrong and escapes responsibility ; then , it is logical to assume that it won’t necessarily “read” om the E-meter as being out. I think that what is “out” here is the “Attest procedure”. We are so fixed on “not invalidating the PC” that we relax just too much. And let me point out to you , that as to the Attest procedure is concerned , this idea is rather misguided and even faulty. What is needed is a better , more reliable Attest procedure. Perhaps a “correction list” to be run to an “F/Ning list” on each flow and/or Grade. If it F/Ns throughout the whole list , then your are done with it. Otherwise , we continue with the Grade. WE should not be concern about “speed of delivery” really , neither about “status”. The emphasis should ONLY be placed on “regained abilities” beyond all reasonable doubts. Only then , we’ll have true releases. That’s my educated perspective at least. ARC,Peter
Hi thetaclear,
There’s a recently published book written by a man who did the original OT VIII when it first came out. It’s available on amazon.com for only $2.99 for the kindle version (there’s a paperback too). I’ve only skimmed through it so far, but it’s more or less written around the controversial bulletin you referred to, which the author feels scientologists should never have been deprived of by DM. He got great benefits from it, even though he is critical of LRH and scientology in various ways. Here’s the amazon link for anybody who’s interested:
Thanks Marildi , I really appreciate the reference to that book. I”ll certainly look into it. ARC ,Peter
Great, thetaclear. I’ll look forward to your commentary on it. Btw, you don’t even need to have a kindle to take advantage of the USD $2.99 kindle version. On the same page as the book (the link I posted above), amazon.com offers a free kindle app that you can download in a jiffy and start reading immediately.
Even from the book title – *Lucifer’s Bridge* – you can see how much the book relates to the OT VIII bulletin that was on the original OT VIII course. That bulletin made it more clear to me than ever why LRH called Scientology “a gnostic faith” – in which Lucifer is considered to be the Light Bearer and in which light/knowledge is the route to freedom.
Another thing is that gnosticism expresses itself in myth, and truths are considered to be embodied in those myths. This, to me, is one reason why LRH said that for Scientology to work, one doesn’t have to “believe” in it – for sure not literally. And it may also be why some pcs who didn’t believe/agree with the literal meaning of the theory on OT levels, as an example, still got huge gains from them. Here’s a quote from LRH about scientology being a gnostic faith:
“Scientology is formed in the tradition of ten thousand years of religious philosophy and considers itself a culmination of the searches which began with the Veda, the Tao, Buddhism, Christianity and other religions. Scientology is a gnostic faith in that it knows it knows. This is a distinguishing characteristic from most of its predecessors. Scientology can demonstrate that it can attain the goals set for Man by all religions, which are wisdom, good health and immortality.”
(from *Ability* magazine, “A Scientologist: A Manual on the Dissemination of Material,” March 1955)
Thanks for the comm , Marildi ; and for posting such a good LRH quote.
Got it about the book , thank you.
There is an specific book that relates to this subject of myths and the truths embodied in them. It quite known by Scientologists back some decades ago. It is tittled : “The Gods Of Eden”. You’ll find a great resemblance between the OT VIII secret bulletin and many of the contents of this book.
Take care.
ARC, PETER
thetaclear, I haven’t read *The Gods of Eden* but I’ve read descriptions of it and it’s amazing how closely it corresponds to the bulletin LRH wrote in 1980 – more than a decade before that book was published. And, as I wrote in another comment on this thread, there are many others at this point in time who have made the same observations.
Thanks for your comments, and the ones to come. 🙂
Marildi the book gods of eden is a real gem! Ive read it about 5 times over the years, its that good! Each time I re-read it I gain a deeper understanding. The author really digs deep into the causes of conflict and extraterrestrial influences and gives credible research to back it all up. Secret societies, global agendas are all laid bare in a way anyone can look into and come to their own conclusions. Religions and how they were usurped for nefarious purposes is explained very well too. Even scientology had the same happen to it too.
Another fantastic book to look into is Michael Tellinger’s Slave species of the gods! Another relentless page turner! The author is a s.african scholar who presents evidence backing up the theory of how gold mines were first created 400 thousand years ago. He links greek, Egyptian, Incan, Mayan mythology stories and proves their basic messages using the sumerian tablets as the basic blue print. It was all there right in front of us. How our current bodies were made, what the missing link was, how we have been tampered with genetically etc etc. Incredible stuff!Also explains the why about gold. The obsession for it is explained fully. His take on why humans are in constant conflict is fascinating too.
Enjoy!
P.s.You can find gods of eden as a free pdf download. Google search free gods of eden pdf and you should find it.
Sheeplebane, this synchronicity is like Einstein’s “spooky effects at a distance”. 🙂
A South African who posts as “ashanti” recently started a topic on David St. Lawrence’s IST forum (Independent Spiritual Technology) titled “Ancient Hidden Technology of the Annunaki”. She mentions “the recent unfortunate fall-out and disagreement between Michael Tellinger and Credo Mutway”, and posted a video of Michael Tellinger about the technologies of the Annunaki. If you are interested, here’s the link: http://independent-spiritual-technology.com/discussion/index.php?topic=1245.msg6233#msg6233
Ashanti also started another topic recently titled “Alfred Lambremont Webre” which concerns Tellinger as well: http://independent-spiritual-technology.com/discussion/index.php?topic=1217.msg5996#msg5996
And thanks very much for the link to the pdf of *The Gods of Eden*.
Hi Marildi ,
Thanks for your comm ; and you are most welcome.
Here is the link for dowloading “The Gods Of Eden” in pdf format in case you don’t have it :
Click to access Gods_of_Eden_Bramley.pdf
Take care.
ARC, PETER
Thanks for the exact link, Peter. (Oh, how my list of must-reads grows!)
ARC,
marildi
You are most welcome , Marildi !
ARC PETER
p.s. I meant to say that he got great benefits not just from the bulletin but the whole OT VIII level.
Got it.
Peter
Great points Peter! I hadn’t even thought of those others flows!! This is a lot to digest when I think of how this grade is out between us all. I think the points you make are self evident if one only looks around!
“Free from and able to tolerate others’ fixed ideas, justifications and make-guilty of self. Free of need to respond in a like manner.”
“Ability to face life without need to justify own actions or defend self from others. Loss of make-guilty mechanisms and demand for sympathy. Can be right or wrong.”
If we all just fixed ourselves….
I’m off to handle this for myself. A thousand thank yous. Can’t think of why I ever attested expanded grade lV. Because I do feel a need to respond. And this really hangs a person up in time. Because you are always responding to something that happened in the past.
People that demand a response, are dragging you back into the past. You can only respond to something that has already happened, (in the past).
So, I’m going to redo these grades in the manner you recommend. Very sage advice. I have nothing to lose. Maybe something to gain. A thousand thank yous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hi Pedrito (ThetaClear),
I’m impressed with your comments.
By the way, I’m doing an FZ Bridge.
Your comments explican tu conducta previa en el otro blog.
ML with dulce de leche.
Good contribution. Thank you.
Miraldi, apropos your book referral above, have you read anything by Dolores Cannon?
Hi SC,
No, I haven’t read anything by Dolores Cannon, but in looking over her website just now, I can see why you would ask. It always amazes me how many people have discovered the same things LRH talked about – decades before, usually.
LRH wrote the controversial (so-called) OT VIII bulletin in 1980 – and in PT, because of the internet, you can find so many others who are expressing the same ideas with regard to the “forces” of evil that exist here on planet Earth and elsewhere. One of those people is Cameron Day, who says that many of the so-called “light workers” are really just agents of those who would enslave. Here’s a link to one of his blog posts, explaining why he no longer refers to himself as a “light worker”: http://www.ascensionhelp.com/blog/2013/08/23/why-i-am-no-longer-a-light-worker/
And here’s a short video with Dolores Cannon, where she talks about how we create our reality. I don’t think there’s any concept she expresses that wasn’t said by LRH – in somewhat different words, and sometimes in the same words. She definitely talks about postulates and being OT, using other words:
It’s really complex. We are facing what made scientology so centred on one man. “Source”, “standard tech”. Well, I would say that all of us would go earlier/similar on a rud to get an FN. MS2, Ron’s Org, Independant, Dror Center, Church…
There are some basic tech on which any good auditor will agree. It’s part of the academy level, and is very well reviewed in the class VIII course.
The problem start when Hubbard is more or less out of the equation.
It starts in 1978. Not’s, it obvously bring case gain, but is it purely LRH?
RTC knows very well that David Mayo that they fired when they take over the church, is partly responsable of this RD which has become the main advanced level now.
With GAT1, they “standardize” it.
It should be noted that there is not only bad things (like cancelling the “blow by inspection” which is completely insane) but some good developpement of auditing int for exemple. People who have done GAT training had an improvement of their ability to audit.
Meanwhile, Bill Robertson did a deeper search on the OT band and developed Excalibur and his bridge.
Some discard it as “squirrel” some other says that this is the bridge.
Miscavige faking Ron’s Journal (35 to 39) promised unexistant OT levels (OTIX and above)
Robertson delivered it! (but it was not Hubbard. Really if Miscavige had hired Robertson, he would have had plenty to deliver!)
So there is the point where there are sevral bridge. It’s completely subjective to know their validity.
Some deliver now the “original OT levels”. Those are 100% Hubbard and teach you to exteriorize. But it’s advised to be cleaned first with Not’s or Excal. Which?
So it’s not a reason to fight each other.
There is a lot to experiment.
Some old style freezoner are delivering Not’s and Excal.
A bit of tolerance is needed.
I think the time of absolute certainty on what to audit on the OT levels is way passed. Things have to be piloted. One has to be open.
Didn’t LRH said that one has to put the boots in the sky?
FG: “Didn’t LRH said that one has to put the boots in the sky?”
Yes. And “For God’s sake, build a better Bridge.” If LRH had lived longer, I’m sure he would have continued to build and refine.
Excellent post you wrote. Thanks.
In January 1977, in the HCOB ‘Tech Correction Round Up’, it’s stated that there are “a very large number of OT grades,” and that, it will take “2 or three months of free time to go over these materials and write them up and make them available through Advanced Organizations.”
.
The time to write them up must have existed, as LRH managed to find the time to write 11 science fiction novels in the next couple of years.
.
Yet, apparently, according to both David Mayo and Marty Rathbun, he didn’t write them up and, in fact, they never existed. There were many pages of incomprehensible and indecipherable notes, but no written up new OT grades.
.
?
I would add that the 1980 OT8 HCOB theory material (third wall of fire, etc.) may not be the best jumping off point for those wanting to create more OT levels.
.
LRH, at that time, may not have been at his most lucid.
.
Wouldn’t it be wiser to consult, and build from, LRH materials of the early and mid 1950s, before LRH and Scientology started down-trending?
Boggle, I asked you a couple of questions, higher up on this thread, which you never answered. To be fair, and if you are sincerely interested in 2-way discussion, please answer the questions I asked first, which I’ll post again here:
1) What courses or books have you studied?
2) What is it that you would like to achieve on this blog (or elsewhere) as regards scientology?
Thanks.
I have to thank BIC for raising this issue with MS2. I checked it out for the first time and I must say they have very interesting articles and references. I find a weariness come over me when I read (and contribute to) all the carping criticism of RCS however much justified, which tends to deviate from what is really the central issue – the Tech and its workability.
To Focus: I feel like clapping when I hear news like that! When its real, you know it, feel it and can rightly communicate about it thus. I DUPLICATE you intensely, completely and knowingly! So well frikken done mate!
To Theta clear: I urge you to place the research glasses down, close the text books and give it (Excal) a spin! Only then will you see if this is the next step or not. I double dare ya 🙂 🙂 I cant wait to hear your experiences thereafter my friend!
Even this blog is evolving, working through its issues of dissenters, LRH redundant policies, other sources and whether or not to trust them or even use them. Such maturity, such reason and oceans of talent abound. I feel proud to be among such esteemed souls, I truly do!
Most of us here have done something right here that very few have you know. We kept going despite the odds, false or incomplete trails and stood there in the midst of it all resolute! We push ever closer knowing we have enough to know there is yet still more and the fruits of our toils are bearing fruit. That harvest is near. Theta wine anyone?
Thanks! 🙂
Excal is absolutely one the very best things I’ve ever done. To me, it has been a life saver – I have been able to reach into case and conditions I just haven’t been able to approach in the past, despite considerable effort. Considerable.
Tremendous relief and an incredible history lesson of life evolving in this universe – and the cognitions are just so personal and delicious! I absolutely love this level!!
You get to look very close and inside the entrapment game – and I gained an appreciation for the clever deviousness in which it has been created. It has it’s own aesthetic, if I dare. I am now savoring taking it apart piece by piece and session by session.
The gains and relief are like nothing I have ever experience before.
Now guys, you are really, really beginning to tempt me here with this Excalibur thing. :-)))
ML Peter
Thanks Focus, I often stare up into the night sky admiring the the beauty of the MEST universe and feel a strong bond with it despite all the tampering thats gone on within! You know its all our co-creations up there, mixed up, misowned and generally a large soup of lights and mass. That we had a hand in all that makes sense to me. I often wonder at times if we had free reign again in an instant how many would go on one grand tour just for the hell of it? I know I would in a flash! But there is a gradients lols!
The aestheic of the MEST universe has us all and in lightness binds us!
To Theta clear, you go mate! Have fun!
Thanks Sheeplebane !
I have a feeling before we are all done, we will do exactly that! 🙂
I think I’ll do just that , dear Sheeplebane ; I’ll start researching it fully soon enough (while doing it , of course). I”ll keep research notes to post them at some later time. Peter
Good for you! It is such a ride!
Thanks !
And thanks for the quote – I just saw it now. Very, very interesting.
You are most welcome, Focus !
THE GREAT DIVIDE — (an unsuspected cause?)
Of course, (playing devil’s advocate here) the polar opposite of “The Great Divide”, would be: “The Great Uniting”
That, (of course) would at least, translate into a group, (whether large or small,) who were willing and able to sift out and utilize a common method, or ‘tools’ to achieving a common purpose. This is fundamental to any grouping, whether a church, club, corporation, business, school, team, or/and especially. an association.
An ‘association’ in particular, is peculiar, in that it can have an enormously diverse constituency, or membership, yet have the capacity and willingness to unite for a common cause, (purpose).
it is an irony indeed, that many research scientists, generally have a healthy respect for one another, when it comes to sharing breakthroughs made, involving much effort and sacrifice, in a particular discipline. The ‘respect’ held for one another, unites like no other force, imo.
That is to say, the ARC, (understanding) between these individuals, appears to transcend their differences. (producing unity?)
It is therefore shocking to me, (yet not surprising) that rifts occur so readily between, persons, who claim to have “become wiser”, through their “search for the truth”
Although we have the well established causes of 3rd party, black pr, propaganda, etc,
I have a niggling suspicion, that we have another rather sneaky little mechanism; “the UNwillingness to duplicate”, as being A prime culprit behind “The Great Divide.”
Hasn’t this been the case for you, when you began to bash your head against the wall in frustration, when “the other, just didn’t / couldn’t / wouldn’t GET IT?”
Your thoughts?